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A big win for Android interoperability

openhomefoundation.org

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Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#81

Post by inigyou »

microtonal wrote: post #28
JoshTriplett wrote: post #20

Now if only these rulings also covered attestation.

Indeed. This ruling seems to be targeted at AI specifically. It is a great ruling, because it allows proper competition of other assistants with Google's (and Bixby). However, IMO the bigger evil is all the anti-competitive stuff that make it impossible for competitors to Android/iOS to enter the market, including European products like SailfishOS, such as remote attestation and the things that flow from it (e.g. no…

Phone-tap-to-pay is not a real blocker. In fact I think it should be illegal for all vendors. Just use your physical plastic card. Stick it on the back of your phone if you like.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#82

Post by inigyou »

microtonal wrote: post #62
eszed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that attestation is the biggest deal. My current hope is that the upcoming GrapheneOS phones will be able to achieve that. It's really up to a manufacturer being able to strong-arm third-parties - banks and such - into accepting their chain of trust, and Motorola may be able to do that.

I don't think the upcoming Motorola phones will change this by themselves. As far as I understand, Motorola will not directly sell GrapheneOS phones. They will make phones that fulfill the hardware requirements and work with the GrapheneOS team to make the firmware available, etc. It will still be up to the user to install GrapheneOS. That has benefits - you do not have to trust Motorola not to ship stuff that you wo…

> Getting the EU to ban Play Integrity

Unlikely to happen, it's just not how they operate. Instead they will create a government registry where any legal entity can register their integrity attestation keys, with oversight by a bureaucracy in a process that takes 6 months and €100,000. Apps will be required to use the registry but still allowed to block attestations they don't like, and any attestation key that leaks into open circulation (such as FOSS) will be blacklisted in the registry because it no longer attests anything.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#83

Post by stavros »

inigyou wrote: post #64
podgietaru wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s convenient?

I agree, it's very convenient to have a phone full of corporate malware. But I thought the point of GrapheneOS was to escape that. My corporate malware only runs on my secure card processor which sits in a pocket glued to my phone.

You're begging the question. The entire premise of this thread is "we should be able to pay without infesting our phone with corporate malware".

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#84

Post by inigyou »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #41
microtonal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. This ruling seems to be targeted at AI specifically. It is a great ruling, because it allows proper competition of other assistants with Google's (and Bixby). However, IMO the bigger evil is all the anti-competitive stuff that make it impossible for competitors to Android/iOS to enter the market, including European products like SailfishOS, such as remote attestation and the things that flow from it (e.g. no…

I mean EU have 20 years to make android/ios competition and they aren't able to replicate it so its them to blame also they should not abandon Nokia back then

The US has both infinite money for the rich and strong wealth inequality - both carrot and stick. I don't think it's a good way to live though. China also has unlimited money and top-down economic control that can direct good things to be made. Europe has neither. It has people with stable lives they don't want to mess up, and it has limited money, most of which is claimed by its existing billionaires through its bureaucratic processes.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#85

Post by inigyou »

stavros wrote: post #83
inigyou wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it's very convenient to have a phone full of corporate malware. But I thought the point of GrapheneOS was to escape that. My corporate malware only runs on my secure card processor which sits in a pocket glued to my phone.

You're begging the question. The entire premise of this thread is "we should be able to pay without infesting our phone with corporate malware".

Well yes, but attacking Graphene for that is attacking the wrong layer. If you want an open payments system the government has to mandate it, or you could take the low chance of success with the free market competition method.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#86

Post by jeroenhd »

shiandow wrote: post #22

I don't care about any of these, I just want to be able to have whatever Google pay does without Google. You could claim that's not an android problem but if you do I don't think you've ever had to explain to people your phone doesn't have a Google Play store.

My bank had NFC payments for years. None of the remote attestation bullshit. I think it used Google's library for doing QR code scans so it wouldn't work without Google Play, but that's beside the point.

Android already supports this, and has supported this for over a decade. The restriction here is on the side of the finance ecosystem. Everyone has congregated on doing Apple/Google Pay because it's cheap and easy to maintain compared to the alternative. Cards companies and banks make deals with Google, just like they do with companies like Apple, Samsung, and Garmin.

Any fintech startup with serious backing can create an Android app that works on any ROM you can imagine. I don't think you'd have an easy time finding investors for this with how much money you need to partake in the ecosystem, but the API is ready for you to implement.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#87

Post by jorvi »

shiandow wrote: post #22

I don't care about any of these, I just want to be able to have whatever Google pay does without Google. You could claim that's not an android problem but if you do I don't think you've ever had to explain to people your phone doesn't have a Google Play store.

We had that for many years. But banks stopped supporting their own payment solutions because despite not having to pay commission to Google, it was more expensive to support their own solutions.

That should also tell you that almost any open source / non-profit solution is doomed to fail due to costs. What could work is if, just like the UnifiedAttestation initiative has commercial backing, Wero is expanded to also have its own NFC payment stack. The EU already forced Apple to open up NFC, so it is possible to do it for both iOS and Android.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#88

Post by tonyhart7 »

inigyou wrote: post #84
tonyhart7 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean EU have 20 years to make android/ios competition and they aren't able to replicate it so its them to blame also they should not abandon Nokia back then

The US has both infinite money for the rich and strong wealth inequality - both carrot and stick. I don't think it's a good way to live though. China also has unlimited money and top-down economic control that can direct good things to be made. Europe has neither. It has people with stable lives they don't want to mess up, and it has limited money, most of which is claimed by its existing billionaires through its bur…

You know that this is cope of Incompetent of European Homegrown software industry right ???

China literally backwater in 1970s, now they have some of the biggest software tech itw

there is no excuse

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#89

Post by stavros »

inigyou wrote: post #85
stavros wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're begging the question. The entire premise of this thread is "we should be able to pay without infesting our phone with corporate malware".

Well yes, but attacking Graphene for that is attacking the wrong layer. If you want an open payments system the government has to mandate it, or you could take the low chance of success with the free market competition method.

I read the very first message of the thread as "if you're going to regulate something, regulate that we should be able to pay without requiring Google", ie with Graphene and the like. I didn't read it as an attack on Graphene.

Re: A big win for Android interoperability

#90

Post by tjoff »

wltr wrote: post #47
tjoff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a normal card is superior in most practical cases?

No it’s not, all of my and my extended family cards (for… like a decade!) are never even leave the envelope they come in. I’m not sure I personally know people who use physical cards over Google or Apple Pay. I have seen the cards being used in the wild, of course. But I’m having hard time remembering anyone I personally know who does that.

So, the argument is that it is popular? I'm not arguing against that...

That people trade anything for even just perceived convenience? That isn't news either, but it does explain a lot of the sad state of affairs we are struggling with today.

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