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The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

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Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#81
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is my industry I know it well How far ahead is SpaceX compared to the competition, a decade? More? Less? Is the gap closing or growing? > Their actual profit margin for launch of F9 is 62% - 80% depending on configuration. That is a margin unheard of in aerospace. Do you expect they maintain these margins on launch and whatever services they deliver from space as that gap is closing? Is their first mover advan…

The rest of the industry is about 10 years beyond SpaceX. But note that they are where SpaceX was a decade ago, which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up.” The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller.

> which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up."

This is reasonable, unless SpaceX is stagnating for a decade there will still be some gap in 10 years too.

> The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller

This is where the reasoning fails me. Unless you're making an unstated assumption about SpaceX or the competitors, why would the gap grow? As soon as there's a decent competitor, SpaceX's margins will get slashed. Their advancement will have to be supported by margins that can only shrink.

Followers can even have an easier time catching up because they have a working model in front of them. The leader has not only to execute but constantly innovate just to maintain a constant lead. The challengers "just" have to execute well because they can copy the leader's innovation until they catch up. And some of the competitors are more than willing and capable of extreme measures to copy.

Is there any field where over several decades the gap between the leader and the challengers just grew? It's not my industry but I have the personal impression that your "gap growing forever" opinion will age like milk left in the sun. We'll see.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#82
post #79
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller. Why? Logically it would seem that learning how to do something that's already been done would be easier than discovering it. SpaceX has already done a lot of the work and has shown the others that it's possible and how they do it. Why won't the others catch up? I can't think of any industry that has a market leader that only gets further away from their competiti…

> I can't think of any industry that has a market leader that only gets further away from their competition forever. You're on Hacker News and you can't think of silicon fabrication? What brand new players do you think are about to catch up to TSMC or Samsung? Or what about advanced jet turbine engines, why is China still having such trouble matching the performance of existing leaders after decades of work? Or opera…

> You're on Hacker News and you can't think of silicon fabrication?

Ugh... past performance doesn't predict future performance. Why do you think that SpaceX's or ASML's advantages cannot be overcome by competitors? Some are very motivated and will not hold back from any method to get any industrial secrets from the current leaders. If one person can think of it, so can another, eventually.

A decade ago Tesla was the king of EVs.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starship is going to be huge when it's finally operational. It seems like it should be worth more than $8/shr if the potential is accounted properly.

> Starship is going to be huge when it's finally operational. Any day now. Yep, real soon, honest!

I don't understand this attitude. They're progressing steadily on something that's never been done before. They'll almost certainly be launching satellites next calendar year, and at a pretty good clip by Q4.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#84
post #50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't repeat mistakes of people that were making fun of SpaceX landing rockets before they started to land. Starship has so much innovation in there, the raptors itself etc. It launches, it flies, it re-enters and it lands. The engines work. The heat protection work. Even when they push it to the limits by intentionally experimenting with different heat protection, omitting tiles etc. Even when they are in R&D stage.…

Falcon9 has basically no market: the only thing that keeps it flying is Starlink. The whole AI/orbital datacentres/launch thing is a giant grift.

Falcon 9 has easily enough market launching commercial satellites to keep it flying outside of Starlink. It's the most efficient launcher in the world from a cost perspective. Falcon 9 was making money before Starlink existed.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#85
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starship is going to be huge when it's finally operational. It seems like it should be worth more than $8/shr if the potential is accounted properly.

Why is it going to be huge? Who are the customers and what do they want? I don't follow this closely, just look at the pretty pictures. If there's demand for lifting much bigger/heavier things to orbit than presently possible, I would probably not know, for lack of pretty pictures. So please tell.

Starlink will be the biggest customer, at least initially. They're planning on both substantially increasing the number of satellites in the constellation and increasing the size of those satellites. That will keep it in the black for years even in the absence of other work.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starship is going to be huge when it's finally operational. It seems like it should be worth more than $8/shr if the potential is accounted properly.

just like full self driving tm

How is it like full self driving?

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#87
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China (and others, e.g. Blue Origin and Rocket Lab) are rushing to catch up to where SoaceX was 10 years ago. They are moving faster than anyone in aerospace has ever moved before, but SpaceX is still accelerating faster than that. By the time they catch up, the game will have again changed. SpaceX and NVIDIA share this trait. They out-innovate, and know only one speed: the speed of light. The tortoise can only beat…

> They are moving faster than anyone in aerospace has ever moved before, but SpaceX is still accelerating faster than that. By the time they catch up, the game will have again changed. That was a believable pitch up to around 2020 or so. In 2018 they announced they were going to send a private crewed mission around the moon in 2023. Now we have the benefit of hindsight, it's 2026 and the vessel they were going to use…

That has been how Elon always operates. It’s “green lights to Malibu” timeline estimation. He does it for a reason.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#88
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the industry is about 10 years beyond SpaceX. But note that they are where SpaceX was a decade ago, which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up.” The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller.

> The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller. Why? Logically it would seem that learning how to do something that's already been done would be easier than discovering it. SpaceX has already done a lot of the work and has shown the others that it's possible and how they do it. Why won't the others catch up? I can't think of any industry that has a market leader that only gets further away from their competiti…

Because SpaceX moves faster. I’m telling you an empirical fact: three years ago the rest of the industry was 8 years behind SpaceX. This year they are ten years beyond. The gap is widening not shrinking.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the industry is about 10 years beyond SpaceX. But note that they are where SpaceX was a decade ago, which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up.” The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller.

> which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up." This is reasonable, unless SpaceX is stagnating for a decade there will still be some gap in 10 years too. > The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller This is where the reasoning fails me. Unless you're making an unstated assumption about SpaceX or the competitors, why would the gap grow? As soon as there's a decent competitor, SpaceX's marg…

Because year by year the gap is growing. I’m talking about a historical trend, and that’s just a fact about it. The gap has been growing, not shrinking.

Re: The space bit of SpaceX is worth $8 a share, says Morgan Stanley

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the industry is about 10 years beyond SpaceX. But note that they are where SpaceX was a decade ago, which is not the same thing as “in 10 years they will catch up.” The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller.

"The gap is getting larger year by year, not smaller." You keep saying this—you'll have to explain. Very little in the world has ever worked like this—the opposite has generally been the case.

No it’s not on me to explain why. I’ve just been watching this company since 2008, and seen them break ahead of the competition and then stay ahead as they move faster than anyone else. I’m saying the historical trend line has that gap widening. That’s a statement of fact, no “why” involved.

If you want to know the why’s I suggest reading Eric Berger’s two books Liftoff and Reentry.

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