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Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

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Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#81

Post by sno129 »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #62
hodgehog11 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't try and argue the merits of Bachelor's and Masters. But if you honestly believe that you can pick up the same experience from PhD on the job, then is seems like you learned little from that PhD that you were supposed to and your supervisor failed you. PhD is not about learning content. It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique. It is supposed to be suffering o…

do you have a phd? did you get it in the last 10 years? because i have one as well and 100% agree with op - it was worthless. and i got mine from a "world class" school too (US T10). > It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique. lolol maybe in the days of yore. today it's about pumping out questionable papers that your advisor tells you to pump out and targeting the ri…

I do have a PhD and agree much more with the parent comment than yours. Granted, my PhD was in math, not CS, so I'm sure the experience was different. For instance:

> there are no problems like this in academia (at least not CS) because it's absolutely impractical (re graduation, tenure, etc.) to set out tackling problems which are intractable.

There's a difference between problems that are intractable and problems that require "grinding and radical unproductivity when the problem really is that hard". Maybe the problems in CS are easier. In math, many of the problems are very much of this flavor, and the point often isn't to solve the original problem but rather to use your investigation into that problem to discover new techniques or more tractable problems that you can solve. Of course, the pace of publication is far slower in math, so I'm sure this is a factor in the choice of problems.

On the other hand, I do mostly agree with this:

> are you also one of those people who takes cold plunges every morning? this myth is what perpetuates the same horrible relationships with shit advisors. it's not supposed to be suffering. it's supposed to be challenging. there's an enormous difference.

Agreed, there should be a difference. Unfortunately, in many modern PhD programs I'm not sure there is much of one....

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#82

Post by sno129 »

storus wrote: post #64
lvl155 wrote: post #17

CS degree is not all that fun. You’re better off doing math and just learning to code on the side.

Math is static, CS is dynamic. In math you describe static idealized "worlds", in CS you look at any discrete dynamic process in detail via algorithms. Many folks doing math can't understand algorithms, and many coders can't understand math. Just ask a mathematician what does A = A + 1 mean. There is some inherent impedance mismatch.

This is such a ridiculous and incorrect comment; I don't even know how to respond.

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#83

Post by mathisfun123 »

sno129 wrote: post #81
mathisfun123 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have a phd? did you get it in the last 10 years? because i have one as well and 100% agree with op - it was worthless. and i got mine from a "world class" school too (US T10). > It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique. lolol maybe in the days of yore. today it's about pumping out questionable papers that your advisor tells you to pump out and targeting the ri…

I do have a PhD and agree much more with the parent comment than yours. Granted, my PhD was in math, not CS, so I'm sure the experience was different. For instance: > there are no problems like this in academia (at least not CS) because it's absolutely impractical (re graduation, tenure, etc.) to set out tackling problems which are intractable. There's a difference between problems that are intractable and problems t…

> Granted, my PhD was in math, not CS, so I'm sure the experience was different

my BS and MS were in (pure) math (my MS thesis is on convergence of the ito integral...) and my PhD is in CS systems. CS outside of theory is worse than an empirical discipline - it's a "throw spaghetti, lasagna, burgers, caesar salad at the wall and see what sticks" discipline. it bears literally no resemblance to math (pure or applied).

> Maybe the problems in CS are easier... Of course, the pace of publication is far slower in math, so I'm sure this is a factor in the choice of problems.

yes and that should tell you everything you need to know - there are kids in my department graduating with 5 first author conference papers (i had "only" 3). how much of those papers do you think is original work really?

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#84

Post by BobbyTables2 »

zerobees wrote: post #26
angarg12 wrote: post #10

I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life. As I progress in my professional career I'm more convinced that pretty much everything in tech is on-the-job learning, and universities are little more than a social club. Nowadays you can learn everything you do at university and far more online and for free. Universities (e…

Computer science is a weird degree because it was meant to produce computer scientists. Theory of computability, graph theory, discrete math, formal logic, etc. But the world just doesn't need as many computer scientists as it needs people who know JavaScript. Over time, many CS degrees shifted toward producing software engineers, and it sounds like this person's experience was closer to that. But the problem is that…

Even for research, a lot of CS papers seem like cosplay.

In the place of hard math, models, proofs, quantitative analysis of past approaches, etc. there is simply an “Architecture” section with much navel gazing. The paper topic is not a formal analysis but merely a description of a thing that was made.

Ironically, the least important part of an engineering research paper is the part describing the thing actually built/simulated. That is merely validation of the theory.

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#85

Post by throwaway219450 »

abhaynayar wrote: post #59
angarg12 wrote: post #10

I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life. As I progress in my professional career I'm more convinced that pretty much everything in tech is on-the-job learning, and universities are little more than a social club. Nowadays you can learn everything you do at university and far more online and for free. Universities (e…

What a hook of a first line! BTW, does anyone recommend doing a masters degree in bio-stats or not? Or something similar, bio-tech-like?

Going to need more than that. Why? Do you want to work in biostats or biotech, or do you enjoy it enough that the money and time commitment is worth it purely out of interest? What skills are you missing that you think a masters would give you? Online, in person, where?

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#86

Post by lanfeust6 »

angarg12 wrote: post #10

I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life. As I progress in my professional career I'm more convinced that pretty much everything in tech is on-the-job learning, and universities are little more than a social club. Nowadays you can learn everything you do at university and far more online and for free. Universities (e…

Employers care about credentialization, a lot. And not just from elite universities based on wage data. Diplomas are a signal that you're conscientious enough to grit through large amounts of dull lectures, work and cramming, and that you're probably able to grasp some abstract concepts. You're underselling their value.

> Learning by doing and building a portfolio sounds like a better way of getting in the industry today than getting a multi-year degree with nothing or little to show for it.

Graduates do this too. The industry has gotten highly competitive. So who do you think employers would rather hire, a CS grad with a portfolio or high school grad with a portfolio? It takes a lot more for apps to impress today, in no small part because LLMs expedite the process.

Going so far as to as to found a company might be necessary if the goal is to work at a FAANG co or whatever, but most developers don't work there.

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#87

Post by [deleted] »

noosphr wrote: post #72
angarg12 wrote: post #10

I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life. As I progress in my professional career I'm more convinced that pretty much everything in tech is on-the-job learning, and universities are little more than a social club. Nowadays you can learn everything you do at university and far more online and for free. Universities (e…

Computer science is to programming as physics is to plumbing. If you want to be a plumber get an apprenticeship.

[deleted]

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#88

Post by left-struck »

weakened_malloc wrote: post #67

I'm actually doing something similar, myself, and doing a MSc in CS right now. I'm somewhat jealous of how little group work you had to do! Almost every course I'm going through now has 1-3 group work assignments each. Often the reason is something like _"that's how it is in the workplace"_ which is a blatant cop out, imo. It's clear the reason that Universities force group work is because it's a cost cutting exercis…

Huh, I was doing a mechanical engineering degree at the same time as working on a engineering team and when I was doing exams it struck me just how distorted the exam is from reality and how it selects for a completely different skill set.

So you’re going to put me in a room, under extreme time pressure, where I can’t access the internet, reference books, modelling tools or talk to people?

Versus an office where you often have to collaborate, or ask for help or approval from someone more senior, where important decisions are reviewed over and over by multiple people? Where you need to use tools like the internet, books and modeling software. Where you need to talk to people whether they are engineers, business people or machinists.

Not only that but exams I think are better for people who are good at solving mostly math problems quickly with reasonable accuracy, where as most mechanical design roles require intense attention to detail that rewards taking your time to make sure there are no mistakes made. And most mechanical engineers end up being projects managers anyway I suspect in my country.

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#89

Post by hodgehog11 »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #62
hodgehog11 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't try and argue the merits of Bachelor's and Masters. But if you honestly believe that you can pick up the same experience from PhD on the job, then is seems like you learned little from that PhD that you were supposed to and your supervisor failed you. PhD is not about learning content. It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique. It is supposed to be suffering o…

do you have a phd? did you get it in the last 10 years? because i have one as well and 100% agree with op - it was worthless. and i got mine from a "world class" school too (US T10). > It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique. lolol maybe in the days of yore. today it's about pumping out questionable papers that your advisor tells you to pump out and targeting the ri…

Yes, I did get it within the last ten years (with an excellent supervisor fortunately), and I take part in student supervision. I get to talk with the students and determine what is most valuable for them in the long-term. Considering where those students have ended up, and that we still keep in contact, I'd say I've done alright so far.

> today it's about pumping out questionable papers that your advisor tells you to pump out and targeting the right conference.

That's called a garbage supervisor. I'm sorry that was your experience, nobody deserves that. There has been only one student I have personally experienced where I felt some of the papers were questionable, but they were not strong, and should not have done the degree in the first place (unfortunately, I have no choice in the matter and just need to get them through).

> it's not supposed to be suffering. it's supposed to be challenging

Immense challenge is suffering because you encounter failure over and over and over again. Eventually success will come, but the interim is tough on the mental state. No human likes to fail repeatedly, but it is important to experience that at least once in a research career. It only needs to happen for one project; afterwards, the student tends to develop an incredible autonomy because they've been through the worst of it. But of course, this is where the supervisor is supposed to be responsible to find the right balance, since the difficulty of the task needs to be judged to ensure the student can finish it, while being as ambitious as possible within reason. It's pretty difficult to get right, and many supervisors don't even bother, choosing instead to push their own career. To any PhD student out there experiencing that, find another PhD supervisor please, before it is too late.

> there are no problems like this in academia (at least not CS) because it's absolutely impractical (re graduation, tenure, etc.) to set out tackling problems which are intractable.

No, this is precisely what the PhD is supposed to be for. It should be the most challenging topic of your entire early career, or your supervisor wasted your time. You have a handful of years to impress people, so they have to count.

> this entire comment is "phd virtue signaling"

Honestly, it just sounds like you were unfortunate enough to have been in a supervisory relationship where you were used as part of a paper mill. I'm really sorry to hear that; it isn't uncommon, but it isn't what the degree is supposed to be, and it seems you did not experience what you should have. The program doesn't work for everyone, but it does have a purpose, and it is frustrating when selfish academics bastardize that purpose to give this kind of false impression of the degree.

Re: Completing a computer science degree on Coursera

#90

Post by BeetleB »

angarg12 wrote: post #10

I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life. As I progress in my professional career I'm more convinced that pretty much everything in tech is on-the-job learning, and universities are little more than a social club. Nowadays you can learn everything you do at university and far more online and for free. Universities (e…

> I got a Bachelor, Master, and PhD in Computer Science, with a total of 11 years of education. It's the biggest waste of time of my entire life.

In CS, for Bachelor, I can understand. You perhaps do it just to show the paper and get a job.

For Masters, I can somewhat understand, as the Masters is becoming the "new Bachelor's"

For PhD: It's all on you. No one makes you do it, and the downsides are well documented. In many (other) disciplines, you do a PhD because you want to do research, and you'll never otherwise have the time to dedicate to a research problem. You don't do it for the certificate - unless you want to go into academia.

So: Why did you waste your time on the PhD? Why did you stick to it if it wasn't furthering your goals?

I spent years pursuing it, and eventually quit when I realized it wasn't taking me where I wanted to go. So what's your excuse for sticking with it?

It just sounds very silly to complete a PhD and complain about it. It was your bad decision, after all.

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