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Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

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Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#81

Post by wqaatwt »

stop50 wrote: post #64
frb wrote: post #41

I don’t understand Merz’s obsession with this sick leave topic, like this is going solve the economic crisis in Germany and calling people lazy will score points with voters? Fun fact: research shows it’s probably not better or worse than before, just more rigorously reported through a new digital system since couple years (before that people needed to send paper slip notes to their employers and insurance, which som…

Nobody understands it. Merz never worked. The last time he worked was when he did his service in the Bundeswehr. His Politics can be described as Anti-Merkel: Immigrants are the Evil and the woking class must work for the lowest pay possible and preferably die before they can enjoy retirement; and lastly nobody is right of the CDU.

Merkel dug the hole Germany’s economy is in now. No meaningful reform and disastrous energy policies for 15 years..

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#82

Post by wqaatwt »

joe_mamba wrote: post #24
pixelpoet wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're about to find out! Not to mention all the doctors who'll be getting sick from hordes of people with basic cold and flu piling up in their practices. Man, Merz truly is a genius! You can tell he's had so much experience in normal jobs, truly understands the average worker's situation.

>Man, Merz truly is a genius! You can tell he's had so much experience in normal jobs, truly understands the average worker's situation. What else do you expect from a Blackrock veteran and possible trojan horse? Heck, I don't even blame him, same how I don't blame a scorpion for stinging the frog, it's just in its nature, I blame the Germans that voted for him. As a democracy, every such national fuckup(and they hav…

Well they did have Merkel who did more or less nothing useful for 15 years and dug the hole Germany is in now by kicking the can down they road..

It doesn’t even matter what Merz does or doesn’t do at this point, everything will have disastrous effects on a significant proportion of the population

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#83

Post by eska »

realaleris149 wrote: post #17
uniqueuid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly right. This article [1] mentions 40% of sick days being from people with long-term (> 6 weeks) illnesses. That's data from one of Germany's large insurers. While I don't know the proportion of those with long-term illnesses, if we assume it's at most 10%, then the average for people with "normal" short-term illnesses is at most 12 days. So much lower. [1] https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/sind-die-deutsch…

> from one of Germany's large insurers Is this voluntary insurance? It changes meaning to the statistic to % from those that made an insurance.

In Germany there’s private insurance which can only be chosen by people of higher salary and good health because the rate depends on their condition when they sign up. So this data would be biased towards sick people, people doing jobs that are more likely to make you sick, and people who are financially less well off.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#84

Post by eska »

rich_sasha wrote: post #74
ilc wrote: post #39

Disclaimer: I'm a US Citizen / Worker, white collar. My first job had: Unlimited sick time. Take it when you need it. No doctor's note. I think you may have needed one at the week mark. Never hit at that employer. Most employers have been limited sick, with a note at a week. I can't imagine note on day 1. That's just... nuts. The lack of trust shown there is massive. I'm making calls on stuff far larger than my sick…

Don't know about other places, but in places I have worked that required sick note on day 1, you could get one via a phone/video doctor's appointment. You could argue that this is accountability theatre, though frankly for something like a cold - what will a doctor see face to face that they won't on the phone? It's still a positive amount of faff but pretty tiny.

If I was going to pretend I’m sick I’d just say I have diarrhea. There’s no way for the doctor to check it. So yea this is theater.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#85

Post by mejutoco »

mimischi wrote: post #47
mejutoco wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you need an insurance, but you can choose which one. In Berlin at least I remember TK was the default, but you can choose others.

For clarification, “default” above doesn’t mean “In Berlin you get insured with TK by default”, and rather “Most people in Berlin will recommend choosing TK over a different state-mandated insurer”. TK was also very popular when I was back in university in Frankfurt. It might just still be the one with reasonable prices!

IIRC you can move from TK to others freely, but if you move to some options there are conditions to come back.

TK service via email, phone, etc is amazing, even if your German is not very good, as it was the case for me the first year.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#86

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

joe_mamba wrote: post #70
cassianoleal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more than a day is terrible. If I have a cold or the flu, the last thing I want to do is to go to the doctor. I'd rather just rest up, it goes away in 3-5 days and I can be back at work. The need for a doctor's notes means one of: * I explain to my employer, probably don't get paid for those days, and might face disciplinary action or eventually get fired * I go to the doctor, making my recovery less likely, inc…

> it goes away in 3-5 days and I can be back at work. Sitting 5 days at home without a doctor seeing you on the basis of "trust me bro it's just a flue it will pass soon" also seems dangerous since plenty of people suck at self diagnosing themselves and end up more sick or even dead by ignoring major issues thinking it's something small that will pass. And that's besides the trust part where people are gonna exploit…

I mean, people are sick what, 3 times per year? Those with kids probably around 7.

So for simplicity, let's say people self diagnose 4 times per year and they are right 4 times because they are not dead and back to work.

You can then grab statistics for deaths and overlay that, but the enormous amount of false negatives you would get by doing what you are suggesting is staggering, I don't consider that a good idea.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#87

Post by roryirvine »

arnejenssen wrote: post #77
Melatonic wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you go to work sick ?

I work even if I have a cold. Luckily I never had symptoms of flue. I was down with Epstein-Barr/mononucleosis for 12-14 days in 2004, and then I stayed home (home from PhD studies).

Should you not then take responsibility for the additional sick leave taken by your colleagues as a result of you exposing them to your infectious diseases?

It's quite possible that the total sick leave you've caused is substantially higher than it would have been had you simply stayed home when ill.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#88

Post by Timon3 »

wqaatwt wrote: post #79
ilc wrote: post #39

Disclaimer: I'm a US Citizen / Worker, white collar. My first job had: Unlimited sick time. Take it when you need it. No doctor's note. I think you may have needed one at the week mark. Never hit at that employer. Most employers have been limited sick, with a note at a week. I can't imagine note on day 1. That's just... nuts. The lack of trust shown there is massive. I'm making calls on stuff far larger than my sick…

Employers still have the option to not require it on day one if they choose? It’s just that they have the option now if they feel specific employees are abusing it. Considering that you can’t fire people in Germany for taking an excessive number of sick days (even if you have good reason to believe they are faking it that doesn’t seem unreasonable)

> Considering that you can’t fire people in Germany for taking an excessive number of sick days (even if you have good reason to believe they are faking it that doesn’t seem unreasonable)

This is not true, it is possible to fire people in these cases.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#89

Post by inigyou »

wqaatwt wrote: post #79
ilc wrote: post #39

Disclaimer: I'm a US Citizen / Worker, white collar. My first job had: Unlimited sick time. Take it when you need it. No doctor's note. I think you may have needed one at the week mark. Never hit at that employer. Most employers have been limited sick, with a note at a week. I can't imagine note on day 1. That's just... nuts. The lack of trust shown there is massive. I'm making calls on stuff far larger than my sick…

Employers still have the option to not require it on day one if they choose? It’s just that they have the option now if they feel specific employees are abusing it. Considering that you can’t fire people in Germany for taking an excessive number of sick days (even if you have good reason to believe they are faking it that doesn’t seem unreasonable)

You have the option in Germany to require a doctor's note on day 1. If an employee is sick too much, their health insurance reimburses you for their salary.

Re: Sick leave: Germany rising but not the worst in Europe

#90

Post by inigyou »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #86
joe_mamba wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it goes away in 3-5 days and I can be back at work. Sitting 5 days at home without a doctor seeing you on the basis of "trust me bro it's just a flue it will pass soon" also seems dangerous since plenty of people suck at self diagnosing themselves and end up more sick or even dead by ignoring major issues thinking it's something small that will pass. And that's besides the trust part where people are gonna exploit…

I mean, people are sick what, 3 times per year? Those with kids probably around 7. So for simplicity, let's say people self diagnose 4 times per year and they are right 4 times because they are not dead and back to work. You can then grab statistics for deaths and overlay that, but the enormous amount of false negatives you would get by doing what you are suggesting is staggering, I don't consider that a good idea.

Well by that metric each person only gets to be wrong once. If course it's a low number.
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