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Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

phys.org

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Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#81

Could someone explain why raising standing water temperature to boiling, I see a constant stream of bubbles forming at the bottom of pan and floating up? Was there air between the water molecules to begin with? Any articles to help explain? I understand the obvious phase transition to gas which would escape at the top, but cannot quite grasp how we get the trapped air at the bottom.

Yes it's the dissolved gas in the water that comes out, see: http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=3197

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#82

It would be hilarious if homeopathy turned out to be right! (To be clear, I don't think that will actually happen, but it would be hilarious if it did!)

"Water has memory, and whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite, it somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it." - excerpt from Storm, by Nick Minchin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U&t=353s The entirety of this song is a listen worth your time. Doubly so if you've never heard of Nick Minchin before.

Who said it forgets it?

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#83

Could someone explain why raising standing water temperature to boiling, I see a constant stream of bubbles forming at the bottom of pan and floating up? Was there air between the water molecules to begin with? Any articles to help explain? I understand the obvious phase transition to gas which would escape at the top, but cannot quite grasp how we get the trapped air at the bottom.

Yes it's the dissolved gas in the water that comes out, see: http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=3197

So there is O2 dissolved in the water. Most of what I read explains we can boiling away O2 as seen forming on the side of the walls of a pot as temp rises. What's curious is why those bubbles seem endless if they have been expelled out, like some equilibrium of oxygen getting dissolved again back into the water.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#84
post #60

I wonder if we are finding structure here because we are looking for structure. Similar how you can find human faces in random pixels or rocks.

Nah.

If I understand the article correctly, they found a phase transition reaction, a chemical reaction that occurs in liquid water below 0 C that splits the body of liquid water into one continuous region of high density and one of low, so its no longer a uniform liquid.

This would also release heat, like the freezing reaction (and unlike random rearrangements of molecules in the liquid).

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#85
post #60

I wonder if we are finding structure here because we are looking for structure. Similar how you can find human faces in random pixels or rocks.

Nah. If I understand the article correctly, they found a phase transition reaction, a chemical reaction that occurs in liquid water below 0 C that splits the body of liquid water into one continuous region of high density and one of low, so its no longer a uniform liquid. This would also release heat, like the freezing reaction (and unlike random rearrangements of molecules in the liquid).

Okay thats wrong they didnt find that. Looks like just did some ml and it suggested that such a reaction exists and what the two species are.

Also its unclear whether during the phase transition there really is two seperate macroscopic regions as opposed to a mixture (maybe like a suspension)

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. If I understand the article correctly, they found a phase transition reaction, a chemical reaction that occurs in liquid water below 0 C that splits the body of liquid water into one continuous region of high density and one of low, so its no longer a uniform liquid. This would also release heat, like the freezing reaction (and unlike random rearrangements of molecules in the liquid).

Okay thats wrong they didnt find that. Looks like just did some ml and it suggested that such a reaction exists and what the two species are. Also its unclear whether during the phase transition there really is two seperate macroscopic regions as opposed to a mixture (maybe like a suspension)

You should still be able to confirm it with calorimetry though I guess?

I'm confused about this.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#87
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with making claims about the chiropractic practices is that it spans such a huge range of "absolute bullshit" to "physically grounded adjustments". Joints and vertebrae (especially) really can be out of alignment, and you can absolutely see that on imaging. Muscles in constant tension can be self-reinforcing in ways that don't easily correct themselves without an external force. My wife has significant ba…

Your understanding of modern homeopathy is rooted in misconceptions. Many homeopathic products actually contain a sufficient amount of the active ingredient that they absolutely can conceivably have a significant biological effect.

> Many homeopathic products actually contain a sufficient amount of the active ingredient that they absolutely can conceivably have a significant biological effect

On the upside, "the risk of bioaccumulation of metals/metalloid from the homeopathic medicines seems to be rather low, due to small quantities of those products prescribed to be applied per day, as well as insignificant metal contamination of the majority of tested products" [1].

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20674842/

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#88
This is a molecular dynamics (with a specific TIP4 water model) and AI. I would characterize this paper (and basically most MD/AI simulation) as "guided hypothesis generation". I am skeptical that this result will hold up to experimental validation. It is incredibly easy to generate molecular dynamics results that look perfectly reasonable but have nothing to do with "reality" (i.e., how a lab experiment with the same system would turn out.)

One of the biggest challenges with water is modeling proton transport (i.e. pH, as water is a weird self-ionizing material.) Protons move too fast for MD steps to be stable, so they have to be approximated in some way. That is one reason why there are so many water models to choose from. Each model has a trade-off that is fine in some contexts, disastrous in others.

My money is on a TIP4 artifact.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#89
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps some very traditional ones would. Most people are just concerned with addressing their symptoms. Rightly or wrongly, homeopathic products are considered medicines, not supplements, and people in general are very mindful of spending money on medicines that don't work.

> Rightly or wrongly, homeopathic products are considered medicines, not supplements, and people in general are very mindful of spending money on medicines that don't work. [Citation needed]. People spend enormous amounts of money on junk "cures" and have done for centuries. Homeopathy is just one of the many current such scams.

Many mainstream medicines absolutely are junk, e.g. phenylephrine as a nasal decongestant. Moreover many can be fairly harmful, sometimes causing permanent damage. As a case in point, I have a prescription medicine induced permanent tinnitus. Other prescription medicines gave me kidney injury and high blood pressure, but at least those effects were temporary and reversible. Practically all rx medicines also come with an assortment of harmful additives and even petroleum dyes (artificial colors) that are known to be inflammatory and injurious.

Anyhow, it's not the angle of discussion that I was going for. Your assertion that homeopathy as a whole is a scam is rooted in a tiring misconception that all of its products are too dilute to work which is a falsity. Numerous homoeopathic products absolutely have a sufficient amount of the product to result in a biological effect.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's the dissolved gas in the water that comes out, see: http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=3197

So there is O2 dissolved in the water. Most of what I read explains we can boiling away O2 as seen forming on the side of the walls of a pot as temp rises. What's curious is why those bubbles seem endless if they have been expelled out, like some equilibrium of oxygen getting dissolved again back into the water.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "endless". Does this help? https://www.quora.com/Does-oxygen-leave-water-as-it-boils-an...
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