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Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

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Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#81

Post by gruez »

bilekas wrote: post #37

I mean there was an attempt before, and maybe I'm wrong but I'm sure they were fined in 2010 at least in the EU, this seems to be round 2 of their 'Memory Cartel' after learning some lessons, realising all they need to do is keep supply as low as they want and allow the AI companies to spend hand over fist. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_10_...

>keep supply as low as they want and allow the AI companies to spend hand over fist

That's indistinguishable from not wanting to get burned by another semiconductor boom/bust cycle.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#82

Post by myrmidon »

mrtksn wrote: post #64
myrmidon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RAM buyers have no interest in entertaining something like that because their revenue comes mainly from the US, too. Corporations avoid picking fights with large nations where lots of revenue comes from for very obvious reasons.

So in other words, if Koreans and Europeans decide not to sell their stuff to America,quits the AI race and the capitalist do something else instead? I don't think so, in the hypothetical world where Korea and Europe don't sell to US, the American money that is invested in AI will go wherever they can actually build it, the people who are using these machines to build those models are mostly immigrants anyway.

If Koreans/Europeans decide not to sell their stuff, some of the money would go into circumventing the ban:

1) This is not good for Korean/Europen sellers, because it negatively affects sales volume, and is unlikely to be compensated by margins, because a good chunk of those will go towards circumvention instead of the original seller.

2) Some more money will go towards replacing those sellers completely. This is extra not good from the sellers perspective.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#84

Post by cosmic_cheese »

zarzavat wrote: post #80
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching off DDR3 manufacturing I can understand, but DDR4 machines are still quite relevant and usable… Ryzen 5000 series boxes for example don’t feel meaningfully weaker than they did when new. My 5950X tower certainly doesn’t, and it’d really be nice to be able to upgrade its RAM should I need to because it will continue to be useful for quite some time. AMD just re-released their 5800X3D for AM4 board users who…

They're running a business not a charity. Their job is to manufacture what the market as a whole demands. If they can make more money making HBM than DDR4 then they have to make HBM. Why would a business go out of its way to make less money?

1. The AI bubble is an insane distortion and the gravy train isn’t going to last forever. Betting the farm on everlasting datacenter demand is myopic.

2. In a healthy, competitive market there would be smaller manufacturers that’d be happy to take up the big guys’ discarded business.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#85

Post by varispeed »

vablings wrote: post #20
varispeed wrote: post #15

Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow. So here Samsung and SK Hynix could say they price match to Micron and they are in the clear.

That is not what price fixing actually is. In the UK "price matching" is a one-to-many relationship meaning that the price of goods is set to the "lowest available" Price fixing is a many-to-one all the manufactures agree to the highest prices they all agree on and set it there.

You are arguing semantics. Effect is the same.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#86

Post by varispeed »

jackb4040 wrote: post #53
varispeed wrote: post #15

Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow. So here Samsung and SK Hynix could say they price match to Micron and they are in the clear.

Price match creates downward pressure, nobody is gonna sue over lower prices. This is like if you showed a supermarket that their competitor's oranges were more expensive, and they "matched" by raising their prices for everyone.

That is your assumption without evidence. Once the targeted market knows others are tracking the price, it can up the price without fear competing market will undercut.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#87

Post by iwontberude »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #84
zarzavat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're running a business not a charity. Their job is to manufacture what the market as a whole demands. If they can make more money making HBM than DDR4 then they have to make HBM. Why would a business go out of its way to make less money?

1. The AI bubble is an insane distortion and the gravy train isn’t going to last forever. Betting the farm on everlasting datacenter demand is myopic. 2. In a healthy, competitive market there would be smaller manufacturers that’d be happy to take up the big guys’ discarded business.

Deleted

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#88

Post by dcrazy »

lightedman wrote: post #76
bryanlarsen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identical prices are often a sign of intense competition. Every gas station on a corner has the same price because it's a highly competitive market not because of collusion. The prices of the much more lucrative chocolate bars inside the gas stations are less likely to be identical.

"Every gas station on a corner has the same price because it's a highly competitive market not because of collusion." Huh? I can go to most any gas station-occupied intersection and you will always find two that match and one (usually a Persian-owned Chevron) which is consistently a dollar or more higher per gallon across all grades of fuel.

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