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Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

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Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#81

Post by mlinhares »

microgpt wrote: post #24
mlinhares wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, its all inequality. Most people are going to be renters forever in my hometown and the government has absolutely no plan to fix it. People will just be pushed farther and farther away from where they work and will have longer and longer commutes because it is impossible to pay to live close to work with the salaries they're making.

Renting itself isn't inherently the problem if you have very strong tenant rights. Imagine renting came with all the rights of owning except the money flowed differently (like a perpetual mortgage) - that'd be pretty okay, actually. It is within the power of a government to enable something like that.

Its more likely you'll continue to own the place than the government making something like that, that would hurt real estate owners. Renting is fine if you're on your prime years, making money and enjoying life, once you're on your way down, old and likely less employable, renting becomes an issue as you'll likely not make as much money anymore but the rents never go down.

I've seen many parents and grandparents of friends having to live on scraps and decide between healthcare and rent because they just can't make ends meet anymore.

For the young folks that can't buy because they can't save its even worse, they'll be indentured servants for as long as they're useful for the labor force and will then be thrown into the bin.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#82

Post by ajmurmann »

kubb wrote: post #78
ajmurmann wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think happens with the money that goes into stock? It doesn't simply vanish. It ultimately gets invested in salaries, construction of data centers and factories.

That's most certainly not what happens! The money that goes into buying a stock is being transferred to the people who sold you the stock (which, outside of the IPO are almost always market players). A company with a high stock price can "save money" by paying employees in stock, borrowing money cheaper, but it's NOT a primary way of funding the company.

And where does the money of the seller go? Back into other stock or (less likely) consumption. Eventually it goes towards newly issues stock or gets invested in early stage companies that put all of it towards direct investments into people or productivity assets.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#83

Post by kubb »

ajmurmann wrote: post #82
kubb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's most certainly not what happens! The money that goes into buying a stock is being transferred to the people who sold you the stock (which, outside of the IPO are almost always market players). A company with a high stock price can "save money" by paying employees in stock, borrowing money cheaper, but it's NOT a primary way of funding the company.

And where does the money of the seller go? Back into other stock or (less likely) consumption. Eventually it goes towards newly issues stock or gets invested in early stage companies that put all of it towards direct investments into people or productivity assets.

I'm sceptical, do you have any data to back this up?

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#84

Post by duxup »

BariumBlue wrote: post #10

Seems like housing again: > Rents have surged in recent years, driven by tourism, foreign investment and a shortage of affordable housing. The cost of housing now consumes one of the largest shares of disposable income in the European Union My impression is that where housing is expensive, there will be complaints of unaffordability (obviously), but also vice versa, that where there is unaffordability, housing always…

It's wild how much housing is a big issue but local government with direct control, choose to do nothing. I know of a rural area where folks are upset about housing prices, there's no lack of space, they just do not zone more housing. They simply don't do it ... and the locals are happy to blame outsiders and seemingly wallow rather than really address it.

Granted it's not all zoning, new houses won't be super cheap, but it's a start.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#85

Post by microgpt »

mlinhares wrote: post #81
microgpt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renting itself isn't inherently the problem if you have very strong tenant rights. Imagine renting came with all the rights of owning except the money flowed differently (like a perpetual mortgage) - that'd be pretty okay, actually. It is within the power of a government to enable something like that.

Its more likely you'll continue to own the place than the government making something like that, that would hurt real estate owners. Renting is fine if you're on your prime years, making money and enjoying life, once you're on your way down, old and likely less employable, renting becomes an issue as you'll likely not make as much money anymore but the rents never go down. I've seen many parents and grandparents of f…

My way down began at about 23. I think most people's does but they don't all realize it. I'm now 33. It's only a question of how quickly.

I suppose if it comes to that, I'll find a way to sacrifice my then-worthless life for the greater good. And it will be sad, but important.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#86

Post by loeg »

jedimastert wrote: post #56
password54321 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You live in the most privileged period in human history. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/poverty-explorer?tab=li...

And yet we are also living in some of the strongest wealth inequality in the last 100 years at least. https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality

So what? Inequality is not inherently bad.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#87

Post by microgpt »

loeg wrote: post #86
jedimastert wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we are also living in some of the strongest wealth inequality in the last 100 years at least. https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality

So what? Inequality is not inherently bad.

Inequality is inherently bad but a certain level is needed as it comes with non-inherent good, like promoting useful economic activity.

Some people will say "what about the people with one leg? Should we cut off everyone's left leg so we're equal?" - it is bad that they have one leg while everyone else has two, but nobody except a certain satirical film actually suggested doing that.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#88

Post by microgpt »

wqaatwt wrote: post #70
password54321 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think capitalism played a role in eliminating poverty?

No, I implied it did. I actually think that free market competition has been the main driving force behind human progress for quite a while now. The issue is that the “winning condition” of capitalism results in the complete subversion of that process. So it’s always a balance.

Free market competition is the opposite of capitalism though. Free market competition means that markets are free, but capitalism means that markets are controlled by the richest.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#89

Post by raffael_de »

abirch wrote: post #8
samiv wrote: post #4

There's no paradox here. Distribution of wealth matters. Rich got richer and everyone else didn't. Simple as that.

As Ray Dalio has mentioned, you should measure results on how it impacts the bottom 51% of the people (the majority) it's a lot more illustrative than looking at the average.

or mathematically speaking ... use the median instead of the arithmetic mean.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#90

Post by stankondrat »

I live here. Few facts: normal salary €1000 per month; houses €150–200–300k; house prices are rising because of foreign investors; seasonal workers from the philippines earn €500+ per month.

Officially, it's a 6-day working week - 48 hours (!)

The tourism economy requires only cheap labour, ideally buying all the properties and bringing in seasonal workers. That's sad.

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