I haven’t seen it discussed anywhere that closed models can essentially cheat benchmarks right? What Anthropic or OpenAI brand as a model doesn’t necessarily have to be just weights, it can be a whole backend system that augments the model itself. With this they can score better benchmarks than an open source model that is weights alone.
The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
81–90 of 264 posts
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
That only affects people in California. Whereas Fable being shut down affects people all over the world.
There's also, importantly, a distinction between what are told we can no longer use, and what can actually be taken away. Open source and open hardware can be called illegal by a government, but, if we collectively invest our energy into open alternatives, they can't be taken away in the same sense. I can build a RepRap printer and I can use a local AI model. It's on all of us to make sure that the open alternatives…
Believe me, if the government wants to stop you from having access to something like that, they could do it. Just give people some incentive to report you and make really harsh punishments and everyone will be thinking really hard about how bad they want have access.
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#83IMHO, the biggest problem with the future of open weights models is that currently, open weights models are the result of philanthropy by some private org. (e.g. DeepSeek). The spigot can be turned off at any time. Until there's some sort of "community owned hardware", open weights models are always at risk of being discontinued.
I don't think that's the case, it's not philanthropy, they are getting something out of it. The labs are learning from one another from the shared models. Plus I am certain it makes financial sense. I am guessing here but fully utilizing a subscriptions limits probably costs the operator more money than the subscription revenue, that is why anthropic is making such a big stink about the chinese data harvesting. By re…
The primary benefit of releasing weights is the attention it generates. Some people have the hardware to run it, try it out because it's free, tell everyone about it, and then even people who don't have the hardware might get interested and pay the original developer. So it's a marketing expense, basically.
The most popular LLM product in China is Bytedance's Doubao. You probably haven't heard of them since they never released weights and don't benchmark particularly well, but Bytedance already had enough users on its other apps that they could directly advertise Doubao to.
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's also, importantly, a distinction between what are told we can no longer use, and what can actually be taken away. Open source and open hardware can be called illegal by a government, but, if we collectively invest our energy into open alternatives, they can't be taken away in the same sense. I can build a RepRap printer and I can use a local AI model. It's on all of us to make sure that the open alternatives…
Believe me, if the government wants to stop you from having access to something like that, they could do it. Just give people some incentive to report you and make really harsh punishments and everyone will be thinking really hard about how bad they want have access.
They can stop piracy or child predators. what makes you think they can prevent access to running models that require no internet access to run
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#85IMHO, the biggest problem with the future of open weights models is that currently, open weights models are the result of philanthropy by some private org. (e.g. DeepSeek). The spigot can be turned off at any time. Until there's some sort of "community owned hardware", open weights models are always at risk of being discontinued.
It's just a smart business decision that allows their models to compete and gain market-share against much pricier private models. No philanthropy there.
It depends how you define philanthropy - obviously corporations don't just donate such valuable products to the world to make it a better place, but in effect that's what they end up doing in their effort to gain market share or brand recognition. Actual human philanthropists are sometimes doing it for the similar reasons of self-promotion.
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Training these models is not a "hardware" problem.
I think that simplifies it a bit. You can't train without hardware, which is why the Chinese companies are illegally importing Nvidia cards [1]. [1] https://www.theinformation.com/articles/deepseek-using-banne...
The usefulness of the smuggled NVIDIA GPUs has greatly diminished for AI purposes, because the elimination of NVIDIA as a competitor has allowed the growth of the production of domestic GPUs.
Moreover, China has just demonstrated a supercomputer faster than any US supercomputer, which unlike the US supercomputers, which need GPUs, achieves its high computational throughput with custom CPUs designed in China (implementing an Armv9-A ISA with SME, i.e. the scalable matrix extension, and with BF16/INT8 operations for AI).
The CPUs used in that supercomputer can reach both a computational throughput and a memory bandwidth sufficiently high for training any LLMs (they have fast HBM memory). Their only disadvantage in comparison with the best NVIDIA GPUs is a slightly lower energy efficiency, but China has abundant cheap energy so this is not a serious disadvantage for them.
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#87If the Chinese government is as involved in LLM development strategy as many people claim, wouldn't you expect them to immediately cease releasing open weight models and restrict access as soon as they start producing the frontier models? I am assuming this is what the USG thinks and is why they are trying to cut off the flow to foreign nationals ASAP. LLMs are an undeniably valuable tool, and governments like to con…
How do you know that Chinese don’t have powerful private models already? Maybe they just allow opening the ”bad” models…
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's also, importantly, a distinction between what are told we can no longer use, and what can actually be taken away. Open source and open hardware can be called illegal by a government, but, if we collectively invest our energy into open alternatives, they can't be taken away in the same sense. I can build a RepRap printer and I can use a local AI model. It's on all of us to make sure that the open alternatives…
Believe me, if the government wants to stop you from having access to something like that, they could do it. Just give people some incentive to report you and make really harsh punishments and everyone will be thinking really hard about how bad they want have access.
the government is not God, they cant do much beyond declaring anything bad.
It is on people to realize we have the ultimate power and oppose the overreach of government in all ways we can to keep our freedoms.
Freedom is not free, after all
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just like declaring piracy illegal stopped piracy and removed pirated materials from everyone's computers. Everything cannot, in fact, be taken away. Don't propagandize yourself. Some things, like information, are free. Not even China can prevent all its citizens from accessing Western internet. USGov simply does not have the resources to find and audit every hard drive and USB stick in the country for illegal files.…
Remote attestation?
it doesnt even work in the government's own servers to protect their own shit
Re: The gap between open weights LLMs and closed source LLMs
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that's the case, it's not philanthropy, they are getting something out of it. The labs are learning from one another from the shared models. Plus I am certain it makes financial sense. I am guessing here but fully utilizing a subscriptions limits probably costs the operator more money than the subscription revenue, that is why anthropic is making such a big stink about the chinese data harvesting. By re…
The primary benefit of releasing weights is the attention it generates. Some people have the hardware to run it, try it out because it's free, tell everyone about it, and then even people who don't have the hardware might get interested and pay the original developer. So it's a marketing expense, basically. The most popular LLM product in China is Bytedance's Doubao. You probably haven't heard of them since they neve…
I believe we are still very very early in AI development, so it doesnt even make sense to close models.
Open source and open weights model is how you can harness the potential of all humans to continue development and improving the SOTA of your model. Literally every student on the planet wants to play and improve these models for their own use case.
Plus the ecosystem, once you have users in the ecosystem on your open weight model, this is a giant leverage point in itself