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Thomann takes legal action against Fender

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Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#81

Post by dofm »

timschmidt wrote: post #64
codedokode wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I watched that video but sadly there is no sound comparison to demonstrate the quality issues.

A lot of guitar quality signals will not show through easily in the sound. Like how easy or difficult it is to fret the strings, how well it stays in tune in a controlled environment over time, fit and finish work, etc. That kind of stuff makes the difference between a guitar that can be played, and a guitar which is fun to play.

Right.

Almost all of the variation between sufficiently similar electric guitars, barring the quality of the pickups and maybe some of the electronics, can be eliminated in the setup.

And a lot of the expensive luxury stuff people are convinced has an impact on the sound has approximately zero impact on the sound.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#82

Post by codedokode »

duped wrote: post #66
codedokode wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair there is nothing in the shape that makes it sound better than other guitars; so it is not like those modem chip makers or video codec developers that patent the only optimal way to achieve the goal and prevent anybody from competing. Fender does not prevent anyone from making a better guitar. So I do not like copying. It would be better if everyone used their own unique shape rather than something from 50s…

The argument has nothing to do with the sound. A strat style guitar is characterized by: - Flat top - Solid body, typically softer/lighter woods - Bolt-on neck (as opposed to set or through-body) - Double cutout (as opposed to single/no cutout, V, or other irregular shaped necks) with a longer cutout on top compared to the bottom - Carved cavity in the top of the body - "Loaded" pickguard (electronics mounted to it,…

Yes but there are exact or almost exact clones like this (it even has Fender logo, but the price is suspicious): [1] [2]

[1] https://chinese-guitars.com/products/black-stratocaster-styl...

[2] https://e-catalog.com/KRAMER-FOCUS-VT-211S.htm

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#83

Post by dofm »

_kblcuk_ wrote: post #41
codedokode wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think people who want to buy a strat, would prefer to buy a Fender strat and not a cheaper copy that has the same shape but might sound worse? I personally do not like the price though.

OTH people who want to buy strat would prefer to buy "strat with all inherited problems already fixed", be it PRS silver sky, or any boutique brand like LSL / Sandberg / Suhr / Tom Anderson.

I don't play electric guitar (fretted, anyway) at the moment, and I think John Mayer is very beige, but the Silver Sky SE is a really good guitar. They fixed a lot of stuff, and the lower cutaway is really nicely done.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#84

Post by zokier »

nemomarx wrote: post #65
codedokode wrote: post #51

On a side note, think how conservative music world is, if people are still manufacturing and successfully sell guitar designed in 50s. You can probably take a 50s guitar and connect to a modern amp, or take a modern guitar and connect to a 50s amp and it will work. Compare this, for example, to smartphone chargers or headphones and their compatibility.

why would the connector need to change? nothing has come out that's really better for analog signals

xlr?

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#85

Post by anamexis »

mc32 wrote: post #76
matchagaucho wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar work experience, I was with a CBS-owned music company that had a CNC machine with some old Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster body templates. The hardware manager was cool and would let employees turn slabs of wood into Tele- and Strat-style bodies after hours. When the Fender/German court ruling came down, my first thought was: Fender has had roughly 70 years with the Stratocaster design, and the broader ind…

Things become generic if you stop defending them/enforcing your IP. I think the iPhone at one time defended the design of its “squircle” corners. Eventually settling out of court.

I think you're thinking of trademark, but this isn't a trademark claim, it's a copyright infringement claim. The legal question is whether the guitar shape can be copyrighted.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#86

Post by Animats »

dwroberts wrote: post #42
Animats wrote: post #19

This is a place where European copyright law is significantly different from US copyright law. In the US, copyright cannot cover a "functional part", which is why there is a third party auto parts industry. Improved functionality can be covered by a utility patent, but that lasts only 20 years. Designs can be protected by design patents, which last only 15 years. So in the US, any rights left in the form of the Strat…

Fender has protected the strat design under the claim of "work of applied art" ( https://spotlight.fender.com/newsroom/news/1004 ) which is also a concept in US copyright law, they just don't have a judgement for it etc. in their favour, unlike in Europe.

That article, and LLMs, seem to pick up on an article from US Legal Forms.[1] That article itself reads like something written by an LLM.

A more serious review of the works of applied art problem comes from the Columbia Journal of Law and the Arts.[2] That article ends with "Thus, the 'separability' line Congress has drawn, albeit often difficult to discern coherently, places most overall designs of useful articles in the public domain." Separability means being able to take the decorative design off the useful object. This covers logos on T-shirts, for example. A T-shirt with no logo still works as a T-shirt. But if you can't take the decorative part off the functional object, it's not separable. The common squiggle-shaped bicycle rack is an excellent example. That won design awards and is admired, but it's not copyrightable - you can't take the squiggle off the bike rack and still have the bike rack.[3]

The Fender Stratocaster hits that limit - take away the Strat form, and there's no guitar there.

[1] https://legal-resources.uslegalforms.com/a/applied-art-doctr...

[2] https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/lawandarts/a...

[3] Brandir Int’l, Inc. v. Cascade Pac.Lumber Co https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/834...

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#87

Post by dofm »

codedokode wrote: post #68
jdietrich wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ergonomics. Any solid-body guitar that's designed to be comfortable when played sitting or standing will converge on a strat-ish body shape. You can make a computer mouse in any shape, but the shape of a comfortable mouse is constrained by the shape of an average human palm. The various curves and bevels on the Stratocaster aren't arbitrary aesthetic features, they're affordances to fit the human body. Change them to…

But, for example, are those horns (?) necessary for ergonomics? Do the potentiometers and output jack have to be positioned like that? Does the pickguard has to be the same shape? I do not think so. Les Pauls have different shape and are pretty popular too. > Ola Strandberg set out to design the most ergonomic guitar possible It looks somewhat ... not how you expect the guitar to look.

> But, for example, are those horns (?) necessary for ergonomics?

More or less, yes.

If you "fill" the cutways on a Strat you have a typical guitar shape.

You want the upper horn there or somewhere near it because the upper strap lug needs to be about there for balance, but some players (especially those with bigger hands) will want their thumb to be free from being blocked by the top of the guitar while they are playing the higher frets, so there's a cutaway. You then want the lower horn to have some of the classic shape below it if you want the guitar to be playable sitting down.

The slope across the top corner of the Strat beyond the bridge is there so that players (in particular guitarists who wear their guitars a bit higher with the fretboard pointing more upwards) don't have the upper arm of their right hand leaning uncomfortably across the edge of the guitar.

Some of these elements were protected by Leo Fender's original design patent, I think, but I can't remember which.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#88

Post by TrackerFF »

The problem is that after their original patent expired, they sat on their hands for too long. By the time they tried to trademark in 2008/2009, their bodies were considered generic in the US. Gibson, on the other hand, did what Fender should have done and applied for trademark (for their Les Paul body) back in the late 80s.

Now other brands are eating their lunch, and Fender is seemingly trying a last hail marry to get this settled. My guess is that if they manage to get a positive ruling in Europe, they'll somehow try to use that as case for US courts.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#89

Post by vondur »

TrackerFF wrote: post #88

The problem is that after their original patent expired, they sat on their hands for too long. By the time they tried to trademark in 2008/2009, their bodies were considered generic in the US. Gibson, on the other hand, did what Fender should have done and applied for trademark (for their Les Paul body) back in the late 80s. Now other brands are eating their lunch, and Fender is seemingly trying a last hail marry to…

"My guess is that if they manage to get a positive ruling in Europe, they'll somehow try to use that as case for US courts." That's exactly what they have done, they sued a Chinese company that was making knock-off Strat copies and selling them in Germany. Fender sued them, the Chinese company was a no show and Fender took that as a win to go after PRS who is selling a John Mayer Strat style guitar.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#90

Post by vitally3643 »

nemomarx wrote: post #65
codedokode wrote: post #51

On a side note, think how conservative music world is, if people are still manufacturing and successfully sell guitar designed in 50s. You can probably take a 50s guitar and connect to a modern amp, or take a modern guitar and connect to a 50s amp and it will work. Compare this, for example, to smartphone chargers or headphones and their compatibility.

why would the connector need to change? nothing has come out that's really better for analog signals

I do find it hilarious that the phono jack appeared fully formed and hasn't changed in a hundred years. We got the smaller flavors of TRS sure, but the big honking quarter inch phono jack has stayed exactly the same. Perfect design in one go, no notes.
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