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Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

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Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#81

Post by eesmith »

fuoqi wrote: post #63

I wonder how much would it cost to build a tunnel as an alternative to the Panama canal to fundamentally resolve the drought issues. 1.8 km is comparable to ~80 km (probably a shorter tunnel will suffice) and dimensions are also similar (at least for the old Panamax).

Looks like the Norway tunnel is through hard gneiss. That rock formed 100s of millions or a billion years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveconorwegian_orogeny Norwegians know how to tunnel through it, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B8mlafjord_Tunnel and https://trid.trb.org/view/512421 .

The Panama Canal famously had to deal with a lot of mud, clay, and unstable rock, causing many landslides during and after construction.

The geology of Panama is quite complex and the isthmus is only 4 million or so years old. "The geology of Panama includes the complex tectonic interplay between the Pacific, Cocos and Nazca plates, the Caribbean Plate and the Panama Microplate" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Panama

Looks like Panama City is working on a monorail tunnel to go under the Panama Canal for Line 3. https://www.herrenknecht.com/en/references/referencesdetail/... mentions the complex geology for the TBM has "Heterogeneous ground; La Boca Formation: Sandstone, siltstone, tuff, mudstone, pyroclastic rocks; Tucue Formation: Basalts and andesits; Panama Formation: Tuff, sandstone, agglomerate".

That's quite of bit of soft and crumbly rock.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#82

Post by steanne »

pwg wrote: post #56
mkl wrote: post #7

Having no map is weird. Wikipedia has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stad_Ship_Tunnel

> Having no map is weird. Yes, a failure of both the journalist and the editor. Sadly, this kind of failure is all too common. I encounter articles that often omit a photo of the "thing" the article is describing. This (no photo) might have made some sense fifty years ago in the heyday of paper print where including a photo was much more work. But today, for HTML publishing, it is just an indication of failure on the…

i see the opposite a lot, too, though: articles that don't need a picture but have some marginally-related stock photo tacked on just so there's a picture.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#83

Post by netsharc »

duskdozer wrote: post #12
notfried wrote: post #2

When an architecture company seemingly uses AI to render mockups, they really need to ensure consistency and accuracy. It's not that difficult nowadays. It was quite confusing trying to understand the differences in design between pictures and to compute why the tunnel seems so short compared to the mountain, until I realized it must have been laziness; not laziness because they are using AI, but laziness to do their…

I can't see TFA due to cloudflare, but there is a unique image style used in a lot of architectural mockups of proposed buildings and things that also looks very strange and uncanny. I can't find any examples of it online right now unfortunately, but could that be what they're doing?

Maybe it's because they all use a standard software, this page mentions 3dsMax: https://www.aimircg.com/architectural-3d-rendering-process-z...

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#84

Post by sleepytimetea »

mkl wrote: post #7

Having no map is weird. Wikipedia has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stad_Ship_Tunnel

The map is wrong - but the article is right - it mentions that the longer route higher up on the peninsula from Skabo to Flode has been chosen but most internet maps show the shortest route from Eide (which has not been chosen). There is only one map I found showing the correct slighly longer route at https://www.tu.no/artikler/kjemper-fortsatt-for-ny-trase-for...

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#85

Post by pseudohadamard »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #38
bborud wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask a Norwegian to dig a tunnel and they will turn into a gopher on meth. We are the undisputed champions of tunnels in terms of tunnel density. Show us a piece of rock and we'll put a big hole in it. However. Ask a Norwegian to fix a piece of road and you will be staring at a hole in the ground for 4 years while people will take turns leaning on a shovel in that hole while surrounded by at least 4 different categori…

> Ask a Norwegian to dig a tunnel and they will turn into a gopher on meth. We are the undisputed champions of tunnels in terms of tunnel density. Show us a piece of rock and we'll put a big hole in it. You're saying the the general sense from the old germanic language cultures that dwarves and their ilk were somehow Scandanavian is rooted is a well-dug reality?

I think they were German. Norway imported large numbers of German miners to extract silver and the like, which is why a lot of the old mines in Norway have German names.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#86

Post by bookofjoe »

kaptainkaveman wrote: post #77
SoftTalker wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50 years ago was 1976. Pretty sure there was no particular problem incuding photos or illustrations in paper journalism at that time. Maybe for very low-budget newsletters it would have been.

I think USA Today (1980) was considered repulsive not just because it was colorized and a newspaper but simply because it put more space/resources into illustrations than was considered tasteful. A typical paper would reserve photographers and illustrators for front page and significant stories.

Not everyone considered it “repulsive” — it was quite popular!

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#87

Post by eesmith »

pixl97 wrote: post #27
eesmith wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they've been around for years. You can see a copy of that last image (3rd in the gallery) from 2017 at https://web.archive.org/web/20170707052808/https://www.ship-... and at https://newatlas.com/stad-ship-tunnel-interview-terje-andrea... . A copy of the first image in the gallery is at https://dozr.com/blog/stad-ship-tunnel dated 2021. Edit: ahhh, 2017 and 2021 were the previous two big announcements about the tu…

Heh, it's kind of funny to see how many things are called AI that aren't AI, remember that when we see discussions in HN saying articles are AI or replies are AI. It's memeable in many cases. P1 "AI pictures are bad" P2 "But AI was trained on human pictures" [Human picture]

I think "that's AI" has acquired the more general meaning "that's fake looking", rather than specifically the use of some generative method.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#88

Post by xnx »

walthamstow wrote: post #58
mkl wrote: post #7

Having no map is weird. Wikipedia has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stad_Ship_Tunnel

Am I going mad or does the artist's concept look like the water is going downhill

I think it's the reflections that make the bumps/posts look taller, giving the illusion of a lower waterline.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#89

Post by port11 »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #40
bborud wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask a Norwegian to dig a tunnel and they will turn into a gopher on meth. We are the undisputed champions of tunnels in terms of tunnel density. Show us a piece of rock and we'll put a big hole in it. However. Ask a Norwegian to fix a piece of road and you will be staring at a hole in the ground for 4 years while people will take turns leaning on a shovel in that hole while surrounded by at least 4 different categori…

So just ask Norwegians to dig tunnels around the broken road, duh.

Or just tunnel the entire country.

Re: Norway greenlights first full-scale ship tunnel

#90

Post by ant6n »

Jensson wrote: post #39
dgellow wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the time frame, no? Such a tunnel will exist for a long time (I assume)

Yeah, governments invest on a different timescale than corporations. An investment like this typically enables future investments by other actors and adds up to a lot more than what you see currently. For example a train station doesn't just serve the current people who live there, but the new town and all the new buildings that will be built around it as well. Infrastructure improves land value often by many orders…

It is true cost-benefit for public works projects include the public benefit. But it is often not magnitudes more. Often projects basically scrape by on cost benefits larger than 1.0, after some creative accounting.

And yes, the timescales are larger, but they are still tied to interest rates. A benefit on the scale in 100 years can not be measured over that timescale.

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