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Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

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Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#81

Post by eru »

sersi wrote: post #42
noduerme wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're suggesting people undergo endoscopy without anesthesia? You go first, bud.

I've done it (it's standard in many countries). Honestly, it's a bit horrifying because you are completely at the mercy of someone else but it's bearable. Colonoscopy is definitely easier. My only experience with global anesthesia was as a child waking up with a massive asthma attack unable to breathe so I try to avoid it.

> Honestly, it's a bit horrifying because you are completely at the mercy of someone else but it's bearable.

Probably not as horrifying as brain surgery or getting your eyes lasered.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#82

Post by spuz »

echoangle wrote: post #66

As a layman, it’s kind of surprising that they attempted to CPR someone that long in this situation. If I pulled someone out of the water 2h after they went missing and they were cold to the touch, I would probably call the police and wouldn’t even ask for an ambulance.

The article describes their decision making process:

> As rescue divers searched for the boy's body, we deliberated whether to attempt resuscitation and likelihood of meaningful neurologic recovery of a child submerged for at least 90 minutes. We reviewed literature for guidance2-4,6 and drew from institutional experience with a 2-year-old submerged in ice water for 40 minutes who received 101 minutes of CPR.3 The toddler recovered with no sequelae. For our current patient, the decision was made to resuscitate and rewarm the boy because of his young age and protective effects of ice water submersion. We reasoned that if meaningful neurologic function were not observed after rewarming, end-organ preservation on ECMO may allow family goodbyes and organ harvest for transplantation to give other sick children the gift of life.9 This important point should be considered by providers faced with the difficult decision to attempt resuscitation of a patient with asystolic hypothermia >90 minutes.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#83

Post by kombookcha »

echoangle wrote: post #66

As a layman, it’s kind of surprising that they attempted to CPR someone that long in this situation. If I pulled someone out of the water 2h after they went missing and they were cold to the touch, I would probably call the police and wouldn’t even ask for an ambulance.

I believe this is common to attempt when dealing with very cold water drownings. Obviously this is a very extreme case, but I believe you'd generally be instructed on the phone to start CPR but not try to heat them up until the ambulance arrives. Just in case.

The case below had a person conscious in the water for 40 minutes (with an air pocket under the ice) before going into circulatory arrest, and then spent another 40 minutes clinically dead in under water. The combined 80 minutes in the water lowered her body temperature very dramatically, and played a large part in her almost complete recovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#84

Post by stymaar »

echoangle wrote: post #66

As a layman, it’s kind of surprising that they attempted to CPR someone that long in this situation. If I pulled someone out of the water 2h after they went missing and they were cold to the touch, I would probably call the police and wouldn’t even ask for an ambulance.

There's been plenty of previous evidence that cold water immersion significantly slows down the destructive process caused by hypoxia in the brain. I don't think they'd have tried that had the boy stayed in a heated swimming pool for two hours.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#85

Post by theturtlemoves »

osigurdson wrote: post #34
theturtlemoves wrote: post #19

I'd be curious to read about 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 year follow-up. Party pooper warning. I'm afraid I don't have rose tinted glasses, due to personal experience with a family member with TBI (accident at age 16, 3 weeks in a coma). The aftereffects are profoundly destabilizing to his environment. I sometimes have quite a dark view of people's need to be a rescuer and celebrate the "alive!", when they don't have to deal wit…

While I don't know, I suspect the boy's parents do not share your views. He is able to ride a tricycle and improving.

Neither of us knows. That's the difficult bit in topics like these. None of us is psychic and can tell what'll happen next. Will he be happy and healthy? Or will he have anger issues, meltdowns or exhibit destructive behavior to himself and surrounding loved ones due to neurological damage? We always hope for the best. I hope the boy recovers well. But there are no guarantees in life.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#86

Post by lqet »

theturtlemoves wrote: post #19

I'd be curious to read about 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 year follow-up. Party pooper warning. I'm afraid I don't have rose tinted glasses, due to personal experience with a family member with TBI (accident at age 16, 3 weeks in a coma). The aftereffects are profoundly destabilizing to his environment. I sometimes have quite a dark view of people's need to be a rescuer and celebrate the "alive!", when they don't have to deal wit…

In 1998, a 4-year old girl broke into a frozen pond in Austria [0]. She was found at the bottom of the lake after 30 minutes, with a body temperature of around 18 °C (so much higher than the case described in the article). She made a complete and full recovery (her story was filmed) and afaik lives a completely normal life as an adult now.

[0] https://www.kleinezeitung.at/artikel/3915285/Kaerntner-Wunde...

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#87

Post by throwaway356356 »

theturtlemoves wrote: post #19

I'd be curious to read about 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 year follow-up. Party pooper warning. I'm afraid I don't have rose tinted glasses, due to personal experience with a family member with TBI (accident at age 16, 3 weeks in a coma). The aftereffects are profoundly destabilizing to his environment. I sometimes have quite a dark view of people's need to be a rescuer and celebrate the "alive!", when they don't have to deal wit…

One of my children nearly drowned in the bathtub. She was already unconscious and floating on the water. She had stopped breathing. My wife (who was sitting only 3 meters away in the living room and had talked to her the minutes before) revived her. She made a full recovery in the hospital.

I agree in principle. But: the aftereffects of nearly losing a child were already quite destabilizing to us, and still are, after several years. There is an overwhelming feeling that things can go catastrophically wrong, at any second, so why even do anything?

I cannot imagine the effect of actually losing a child. I would go insane.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#88

Post by kakacik »

theturtlemoves wrote: post #85
osigurdson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't know, I suspect the boy's parents do not share your views. He is able to ride a tricycle and improving.

Neither of us knows. That's the difficult bit in topics like these. None of us is psychic and can tell what'll happen next. Will he be happy and healthy? Or will he have anger issues, meltdowns or exhibit destructive behavior to himself and surrounding loved ones due to neurological damage? We always hope for the best. I hope the boy recovers well. But there are no guarantees in life.

If you are a loving parent, all that crap you list is utterly irrelevant. I don't think I need to list in details why.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#89

Post by d1sxeyes »

looofooo0 wrote: post #35
ddeck wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timeline lists "Sled tracks seen to broken bond ice, EMS called" at 16:44. He was pulled from the water at 18:57. The article text further clarifies: Parents discovered sled tracks from home onto broken pond ice through which he fell. He left the house at 16:00, which is why they give the range of 147 to 177 minutes.

Yes but ultimatively it could been 16:43 to 18:57 which is 134 Minutes.

The first two reported timestamps are 16:00 and 16:30 which both fall conveniently on the half hour. This leads me to conclude that these are guesses, and could be either early or late. It seems most likely that the mother was not exactly aware of the time the child left the house. There is an incentive to minimise (to avoid it looking like a failure of supervision).

What we are certain of is the 16:44 call to the EMS, so you're right, 134 minutes is the lower bound. However, it's not unreasonable to assume that the parents did not immediately call on noticing the child missing, so the gap between 'noticing missing' and 'calling EMS' is real and non-zero.

The gap between 'leaving the house' and 'noticing missing' is something I'm less clear on: how did the parents 'notice' the child was missing when he was knowingly allowed to leave the house earlier? There's still a non-zero gap between 'last sighting' and 'realisation that he's missing' (i.e. he definitely wasn't missing at ~16:00, when the mother saw him leaving the house... what changed so that the parents believed he was missing at ~16:30? Was he supposed to check in with Dad and missed the check-in, etc?)

Either way, a difference of ±10% doesn't really make that much impact in interpreting the results.

Re: Ice water drowning survival of young patient (2025)

#90

Post by munksbeer »

kakacik wrote: post #88
theturtlemoves wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of us knows. That's the difficult bit in topics like these. None of us is psychic and can tell what'll happen next. Will he be happy and healthy? Or will he have anger issues, meltdowns or exhibit destructive behavior to himself and surrounding loved ones due to neurological damage? We always hope for the best. I hope the boy recovers well. But there are no guarantees in life.

If you are a loving parent, all that crap you list is utterly irrelevant. I don't think I need to list in details why.

It sounds like you are speaking to someone who has actually experienced this and you have not. Trying to be civil here, I'll phrase it like this:

Try not to be so judgemental over a keyboard when you have no experience to speak from. Life is complicated.

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