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Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

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Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#81

Post by doctorhandshake »

jdw64 wrote: post #69
doctorhandshake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal theory is that many responsible for teaching science in the K-12 grades are not doing a great job of communicating that science is a process for finding truth. Definitely not laying this at teachers’ feet - standardized testing and curricula, overcrowded classrooms, underfunded schools etc all contribute I’m sure, but I get the impression from talking to even well educated people that they were taught sci…

I deeply agree with your statement. In fact, I think science teaches a specific methodology and a specific mental model for viewing the world. However, the scientific method is a shareable verification procedure, whereas scientists' mental models are fragmented depending on individuals or schools of thought. So I think modern science is a collection of elaborately designed mental models for interpreting phenomena. Th…

Thanks I am not a doctor - that’s an old music nom de guerre

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#83

Post by pavlov »

arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

> “Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive”

We are forgetting the lessons of WWII, and the world is now stocked with thousands of nuclear weapons each hundreds of times more powerful than Hiroshima.

I don’t think we as a civilization can afford this kind of amnesiac adaptation anymore.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#84

Post by vlovich123 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #68
cineticdaffodil wrote: post #53

[flagged]

> time, to accept the retardation, as a permanent fixture. Every 3 generations Why? Previous generations didn’t have to accept this. This is entirely a product of ad-fueled social media.

Go look up how people reacted to the Spanish flu. Or various religious death cults that pop up with regularity.

This isn’t a modern thing - most people rely on their social network about what is true and those social networks can be infected with cultural disease and rot and die just like the body. The problem is that cultural diseases have impacts to the entire species since we’re social creatures and technology has further shrunk the distance between cultures and the time disease takes to spread making it difficult to contain.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#85

Post by arjie »

jancsika wrote: post #63
arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

> Quite interesting to see. No, the article is a shitshow. Ben Dowse is an MD, not a pediatric nurse. The family ended up accepting the antibody treatment before leaving the hospital. The Daily Mail article bizarrely implies that they never accepted the treatment. Both journalistic mistakes are clear from reading the beginning of the Wired article linked in the error-laden Daily Mail article. Did you notice these err…

I did not notice those. And it's my fault for not looking at the Daily Mail critically by looking one level deeper. I should know better than this since this is something I complain about, and also I am aware the DM is rarely accurate. I suppose it aligned with my previous knowledge that we are on the verge of losing herd immunity in much of the anglophone world: https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/2016217002008809982?s=2...

Thanks for contradicting.

I do think it's interesting that herd immunity is failing, but the linked piece itself is not very good, agreed. Amending now to make it clear I don't think it's that the article is interesting.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#86

Post by tgv »

flawn wrote: post #15
chasil wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases. It's best not to get it.

What is the evolutionary advantage of this? I mean, if the host dies subsequently that's pretty bad for both parties, or?

I think that question is too simple.

1. We might not be the only hosts or place where it can survive. Measles seems to have mutated from a cattle virus.

2. Killing the host might be the virus' end-game, in which case it evolved to extinction. Mutations nor evolution don't have a goal. There's not always an advantage. I bet most changes aren't advantageous.

3. If you really want to see everything in terms of evolutionary change, the virus could even been seen as a tool in human evolution.

Evolution is a way to look at changes in and forces operating on living things. It is a property that emerges for human observers. Nature doesn't care about it.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#87

Post by petilon »

Arodex wrote: post #77
arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

It is not "generational memory", it is an active campaign of lies and FUD by crooks, grifters and idiots.

It is not lies if Mr. Kennedy actually believes vaccines are harmful. Idiot, yes. Liar, no.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#88

Post by masklinn »

Arodex wrote: post #77
arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

It is not "generational memory", it is an active campaign of lies and FUD by crooks, grifters and idiots.

I would say generational memory is a factor, if you've seen an uncle or a grandparent who'd had polio, or you're old enough that measles was a thing in your youth, and you've seen these ailments disappear over your lifetime, the lies and FUD will have a much harder time taking root.

If these ailments are completely abstract in both their scope and personal effects, it's easier to be convinced by emotional manipulators. Especially if you're part of the... let's say low empathy population.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#89

Post by doctorhandshake »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #72
doctorhandshake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal theory is that many responsible for teaching science in the K-12 grades are not doing a great job of communicating that science is a process for finding truth. Definitely not laying this at teachers’ feet - standardized testing and curricula, overcrowded classrooms, underfunded schools etc all contribute I’m sure, but I get the impression from talking to even well educated people that they were taught sci…

> Biology in particular but also chemistry is often taught with rote memorization I’m guessing with high confidence none of the parents who are busy getting their kids sick got even this.

It may be a correlation - I don’t have data - but I have some experience with ivy educated adults rejecting modern medicine and science with scorn for the perceived arrogance of doctors and scientists.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#90

Post by BurningFrog »

Around 20% of people have a fear of needles. Around 4% have a clinical phobia, often intense enough to induce fainting.

I suspect a lot of "vaccine skepticism" is just an expression of such needle phobia.

Maybe developing more needle free vaccine delivery mechanisms would solve a lot of this problem. I have much doubt about arguing people out of phobias.

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