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Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

reuters.com

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Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#81

Post by biorach »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #57
threwrfaway wrote: post #26

For those who dont know why this is important: The loads are slowing down the generators that are burning a well metered amount of fuel to stay at 60Hz. This is a delicate balance since the phase angle must also be spot on. If a generator and the local line disagree on f, phase or V, you have a short circuit. If you lose a large amount of load, your generator will spin up with the excess fuel until the control system…

Grid forming batteries and inverters are a thing. They can control the frequency on the grid. Just a matter of getting the right equipment. The nice thing with data centers is that they are somewhat flexible. It's not a constant load. Data center operators can choose to reduce load. And if properly engineered, they could do so automatically based on signals from the grid. The issue with outdated grids is that it reli…

[flagged]

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#82

Post by cucumber3732842 »

manarth wrote: post #61
TOMDM wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would demanding that large spikey users of energy like data centers implement some sort of demand ramping/isolation from the grid in the form of a massive capacitor bank or flywheel generator between them and the grid help reduce the risk here?

The data centres aren't inherently spikey, in general use their consumption is reasonably predictable. However, if a DC detects that the _grid_ is wobbly (voltage or frequency deviations) the DC will disconnect without warning, and switch to its batteries and generators. The grid complains because it's suddenly lost hundreds of MW of load. For the DC to have isolation capability, it would need a load-sink which can c…

>it would need a load-sink which can consume roughly the same power as the DC in normal operation, and can take in that load at a moment's notice.

Liquid rheostat. A big one.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#83

Post by selfhoster1312 »

sph wrote: post #74
selfhoster1312 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linear progression is unfair, just like for taxation. If you're going to make a law like this, it should be something like nlog(n) so that the big players that abuse the system pay more than the little guy.

Now you made me wish for nlog(n) income tax as well.

We used to have something similar in France: solidarity tax on fortune (ISF), abolished by Macron at the height of the gilets jaunes movement in a big "fuck you" move.

Now it's much easier for wealthy elites to not pay taxes at all, as outlined in the past year with the Zucman tax debates (which elites opposed for daring to propose a 2% floor tax rate for those who don't pay 2%), and lately with the ministry of Finance Amélie de Montchalin lying to the members of parliament about the existence of a note produced by her own ministry showing that over 13000 millionaires pay effectively 0% income tax.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#84

Post by tenthirtyam »

threwrfaway wrote: post #26

For those who dont know why this is important: The loads are slowing down the generators that are burning a well metered amount of fuel to stay at 60Hz. This is a delicate balance since the phase angle must also be spot on. If a generator and the local line disagree on f, phase or V, you have a short circuit. If you lose a large amount of load, your generator will spin up with the excess fuel until the control system…

I've often thought that the target* grid phase should be encoded into a high frequency signal, say at 50kHz. Generators without inertia can immediately switch to the required phase and inertial systems can work towards it or disconnect their outputs if they stray too far.

The problem in my mind is that, as it stands, the signal that everyone has to latch on to is itself affected by load and by different generators latching on with different time constants in a complicated feedback loop. Would having a single authoritative source be an improvement? Would that be a way to eliminate the need for inertia?

*I suppose the "target" phase would probably be based primarily on the output from the biggest inertial systems and take into account their ability to adjust phase and frequency.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#85

Post by thelastgallon »

manarth wrote: post #61
TOMDM wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would demanding that large spikey users of energy like data centers implement some sort of demand ramping/isolation from the grid in the form of a massive capacitor bank or flywheel generator between them and the grid help reduce the risk here?

The data centres aren't inherently spikey, in general use their consumption is reasonably predictable. However, if a DC detects that the _grid_ is wobbly (voltage or frequency deviations) the DC will disconnect without warning, and switch to its batteries and generators. The grid complains because it's suddenly lost hundreds of MW of load. For the DC to have isolation capability, it would need a load-sink which can c…

> The grid complains because it's suddenly lost hundreds of MW of load. For the DC to have isolation capability, it would need a load-sink which can consume roughly the same power as the DC in normal operation, and can take in that load at a moment's notice.

Thats why always have all the EVs be connected all the time (except the 20 mins they drive). EVs can provide demand as a service and take excess power whenever its available (instead of solar curtailment), and also provide an immediate source of load when events like this happen. Its a shame US is anti EV, it has the best systems at scale that can be leveraged to transform the entire energy ecosystem.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#86

Post by expedition32 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #57
threwrfaway wrote: post #26

For those who dont know why this is important: The loads are slowing down the generators that are burning a well metered amount of fuel to stay at 60Hz. This is a delicate balance since the phase angle must also be spot on. If a generator and the local line disagree on f, phase or V, you have a short circuit. If you lose a large amount of load, your generator will spin up with the excess fuel until the control system…

Grid forming batteries and inverters are a thing. They can control the frequency on the grid. Just a matter of getting the right equipment. The nice thing with data centers is that they are somewhat flexible. It's not a constant load. Data center operators can choose to reduce load. And if properly engineered, they could do so automatically based on signals from the grid. The issue with outdated grids is that it reli…

Yes we know the solution is infrastructure. The question is who gets to pay for it.

In America that seems to be the dying small town whose only economic value is cheap land.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#87

Post by tumetab1 »

Taking note of the risk is important for everyone but shouldn't the follow up action be to improve the grid voltage stabilization mechanisms?

I have no idea of what entails but this seems more a quality of service issue (provided by the grid) and less about the consumers using the grid.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#88

Post by doctorwho42 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #60
jeffbee wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in absolute terms? I haven't checked in a while. In terms of fraction of energy from solar Texas is still far behind California.

They have more utility solar than California as of last year in absolute terms, they're second if you include distributed behind the meter solar which California has more of. Texas also lead in absolute amounts of wind, gas and coal. They have a lot of generation.

And with data centers (ai) they will not have enough

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#89

Post by jeffbee »

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #59
jeffbee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the problem is an instant disconnect of a large load, switching that large load into charging batteries at that instant, for a minute or so, feels like a solution.

What?

Why is this confusing? Batteries are both generator and load. If the grid needs load to stabilize frequency and voltage, batteries can become loads instantly.

Re: Texas grid flags risks as data centers, crypto sites fail voltage tests

#90

Post by erincandescent »

threwrfaway wrote: post #36
applied_heat wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I imagine they are less sensitive and generally stay online and are only de-energized if the utility has an outage

But they can have their own internal fault and have to shutdown.

A single ~50MW facility dropping off the grid suddenly is something the grid can absorb fine.

The problem is with facility-level grid-responsive safety mechanisms. If the grid sags a bit and several DCs ~simultaneously disconnect, you have a problem. If the DCs going offline causes further instability that causes other facilities to disconnect or grid protection breakers to open, you have a cascading chain reaction

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