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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#81

Post by well_ackshually »

trynumber9 wrote: post #63

What's the real cause of them being unable to price competitively? Is it DRAM, NAND flash storage, SoC cost, simply scale?

All of these, and more. Macbook Neos benefit from all the hardware that Apple makes in-house, reusing CPUs that they already make for iPhones but didn't make the cut, have zero upgradeability, benefit from massive economies of scale, contracts are already signed in advance, the delivery and logistics of an existing chain...

Framework has to go talk to Intel and AMD, get parts shipped, assembled onto a motherboard that they have to make themselves and ordered in very low amounts then shipped all to their fulfillment center, then fedexed, have to source components... Even not taking into account the fact that Apple already has all of the hardware made or available in-house, just the supply and logistics chain is an easy 10% of the final price.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#82

Post by deng »

Well, if Apple killed it, Lenovo killed it even more. I recently was looking for a laptop for a student. The Lenovo E14 Gen7 is 800 Euros here in Germany (where prices are always higher, the MacBook Neo is 700 Euros), it has 16GB of RAM, 1TB SSD, a 2.8k IPS display, a Intel Ultra5 12core CPU, and it has a repairability score of 9/10 from ifixit. Framework doesn't even come close to that package.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#83

Post by whimblepop »

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers.

But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The latest laptops from Framework meet all of those requirements, and I'm excited to buy one after I've saved up enough money. I've missed Plasma for a long time. At the same time, I wouldn't even consider a MacBook Neo.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#84

Post by Mashimo »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #42
Mashimo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it. Just last weekend I bought 8gb ram thinkpad t14 for an elderly relative. 240 EUR. It replaces his thinkpad x220 where the fan and ssd slowly dies. I doubt it becomes an issue, and if it does then I can upgrade it later.

You can do it once and spend an extra hundred dollars or do it twice, including occasional restrictions to the user. Poor tradeoff imho. This is a young person with a long life ahead, we shouldn’t buy disposable ewaste with a short life.

> we shouldn’t buy disposable ewaste with a short life.

Indeed. That makes two of us.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#85

Post by tracker1 »

Aurornis wrote: post #22
eduction wrote: post #10

If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! The Neo is an example of how this tradeoff should work: You lose flexibility but gain a lower price. For other Apple laptops, the price is on the high end and also you lose flexibility. This seeming contradiction is what helped open up the market opportunity for Framework. (To complicate my argum…

> If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium. The best case numbers are buying used RAM and SSD for the Framework like Jeff did in the article ($749 total, if you can find the RAM at those prices) and comparing against the non-EDU MacBook Neo at $599. That's still a 25% premium.

Now pretend you can't get the student discount and actually want the extended warranty/applecare and compare the final result.

Now pretend you want to bump up to 16gb of ram so you can run a VM.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#86

Post by bhouston »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #70

What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago. And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end. The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a…

> CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die"

This is actually great. The laptop body stays the same and you swap out a small mini circuit board that has the CPU + GPU + DRAM on it.

This is the point of the Framework laptops. They are just unfortunately stuck with non-Apple parts and thus are slow / inefficient.

Maybe Qualcomm can make a motherboard for Framework high end laptops with their Snapdragon X2 Elite Extreme ARM-based CPUs that are supposedly competitive with Apple's M4 offerings?

And then offer a cut down Qualcomm mobile phone CPU + GPU + DRAM offering for the Framework 12 so that it can compete on price/performance with the MacBook Neo?

I think you need to complete with Apple with the right equivalents.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#87

Post by robspairpears »

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases.

So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of meeting my requirements? Yep.

Came to bikeshed but the video was more nuanced and fair than this title.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#88

Post by dheera »

Aurornis wrote: post #55
marssaxman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if someone isn't choosing by OS first. What a surprising idea! I have always and only ever chosen by OS first. Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run?

> Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run? Most common software that typical buyers use is available on Mac or Windows: Web browsers, office software, maybe an e-mail client. This is why Chromebooks are a viable option, too. Even my software development workflows are mostly cross-platform when I think about it. I can run…

> Most common software that typical buyers use is available on Mac or Windows

That's not how most people think. Most non-techies are either fluent with "how to use a Mac" or "how to use Windows" and they will just stick with that inertia.

For a lot of people, learning a new OS is an ordeal.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#89

Post by VTimofeenko »

hadlock wrote: post #67
throwaway2037 wrote: post #2

This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer team. Any team trying to compete in this product space against the surprise from Mac Neo must feel crushed. That said, I am still very optimistic for Framework Computer. It seems like nerds are going wild for them.

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

How would one know though by just looking at the device? I have chassis that came with Intel 11th gen, but the brainboxery, keyboard, battery, touchpad -- all have been swapped over time.
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