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Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

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Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#81
post #79
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using your reasoning a large number of collectible items should be worthless. What really makes an NFT different from a Pokemon card, a Birkin bag, or even an original Monet? My guess is that the seller has to have some sort of authority and established reputation for these kinds of artificially scarce luxury goods to maintain value.

I'm not sure, but I know I'd rather own a Monet than a Bored Ape Yacht Club NFT ;)

Obviously, you can sell one for a lot of money. Now assuming you couldnt resell it, would you spend the majority of your wealth to buy a monet? (Assuming you arent broke)

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#82

Perhaps beanie babies is an example that we actually know about.

until you find out that beanie babies weren't irrational either

there was a supply crunch with the manufacturer in China, it was rational to think it wouldn't be solved, creating a limited supply item that had more demand than the supply. the founder solved the issue and flooded the market with beanie babies, prices crashed at that point

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#83
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really convinced that people thought there was "anything else", it's just that people thought that the entry on the ledger was going to increase in value, even from some of the stupifying initial values. I own several NFTs that are important to me, and they're worth every penny I paid. I never had any illusions that I owned anything other than a historical footnote; I think that this sort of ownership is mean…

>I own several NFTs that are important to me, and they're worth every penny I paid. The problem with the NFTs is that you don't actually own the art they represent and have zero copyright claim to them. In the absolute very best of cases, if you squint hard enough, you could see them as roughly equivalent to the signature of the original creator of the work of art and you're effectively buying a signed digital print…

> The problem with the NFTs is that you don't actually own the art they represent and have zero copyright claim to them.

That's not a problem, because art is not ownable and copyright is a huge game of make-believe between states and corporations whose opinion is meaningless to me and to the artists I want to support.

> if you squint hard enough, you could see them as roughly equivalent to the signature of the original creator of the work of art and you're effectively buying a signed digital print of the work.

It doesn't take any squinting though. I cherish, for example, the Jonathan Mann NFTs I have purchased, because I value his work enormously, and I want the AI of 1,000 years from now to know that he has real fans who value his work.

I presume this is the same reason that my fans purchase my NFTs.

Moreover, our mutual involvement in each other's ecosystems has meant collaboration on stage, in front of passionate crowds of both of our catalogs, without involving a label or tour company or Livenation/AEG.

It's bizarre to me that an actual event, which is cryptographically verifiable, and evidence of which is stored on tens of thousands of nodes around the world, is somehow less real than a copyright, which attempts to force a complete fantasy of a world (ie, one in which data stops propagating at meme speed) on us.

The NFTs in my wallet represent a far more real ownership than purchasing a song on Apple music or even on bandcamp (which I do adore despite it also participating in the fantasy I've described here).

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#84
post #14

The brief mention that the fallout wasn't as disastrous as myth would have it greatly understates just how exaggerated the popular account of tulip mania is. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-...

So many of these articles get it completely wrong. Economically. People weren't going crazy for tulips just because, the government had incentivized investment in tulips. The government at the time basically told people that they could not lose money on investing tulips. It should be a story about governments misallocating resources. That's it, but people quit. Keep twisting it into a story of psychology and mania wh…

That's some similarities to the Salem Witch Trials. They were largely about going after whoever had a vendetta and pull with the courts and the bewitchery was the plausible mechanism under which that happens. The 'mania' was largely a veneer under which hid raw projection of judicial-political power to rid political and personal undesirables.

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#85
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of these articles get it completely wrong. Economically. People weren't going crazy for tulips just because, the government had incentivized investment in tulips. The government at the time basically told people that they could not lose money on investing tulips. It should be a story about governments misallocating resources. That's it, but people quit. Keep twisting it into a story of psychology and mania wh…

Does it make sense to talk about "the government" in this age? It probably misguides us more than informs us. I've always felt the perception of government at the time is closer to our perception of the captain of the local football team - at best distant and upholding the honor of the village, at worst a thief with a title - rather than how we view it today. Authority of information lay with the church. Maybe replac…

There are governments at many levels.

I don't think a city of more than 100,000 would be possible without a substantial amount of civil management.

Deciding with bits are for streets and which bits are for buildings needs an arbiter of som sort for starters.

If a place had a sewer it probably had a government.

Sometimes I like to recall that somewhere in Tenochtitlan there must have been some Aztec administrator doing a job like making sure the road signs are repainted every few years.

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#86
post #81
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure, but I know I'd rather own a Monet than a Bored Ape Yacht Club NFT ;)

Obviously, you can sell one for a lot of money. Now assuming you couldnt resell it, would you spend the majority of your wealth to buy a monet? (Assuming you arent broke)

Assuming I could not resell the Monet, which sounds strange, I would still prefer it over the Bored Ape Yacht Club NFT, which is more likely to be hard or impossible to sell, and which is pure crap.

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#87
post #85
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make sense to talk about "the government" in this age? It probably misguides us more than informs us. I've always felt the perception of government at the time is closer to our perception of the captain of the local football team - at best distant and upholding the honor of the village, at worst a thief with a title - rather than how we view it today. Authority of information lay with the church. Maybe replac…

There are governments at many levels. I don't think a city of more than 100,000 would be possible without a substantial amount of civil management. Deciding with bits are for streets and which bits are for buildings needs an arbiter of som sort for starters. If a place had a sewer it probably had a government. Sometimes I like to recall that somewhere in Tenochtitlan there must have been some Aztec administrator doin…

Not sure you need any of that. My entire 'city' is private property including the streets. There is absolutely no one to manage them, no HOA, absolutely nothing. If you can't drive on them you literally have to bust out a tractor and fix it. There is no public water or sewer, no public utilities, so you build them yourself and the amortized cost is easily half of paying some asshole working for the state to administer it. No building inspection, no code inspections. No policeman and no fire; you defend your own life and property rather than some crazed man "protecting and serving" the fuck out of you. Taxes are ~$0. Absolutely glorious. I'd be happy if everywhere was like that.

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#88

Maybe we should update our lexicon to "NFT mania" –– far more people lost money in that phenomenon.

Not an NFT guy, but the "Ape Floor" (Cheapest price for a Bored Ape NFT) has remained remarkably stable (priced by ETH) since the craze died down, which has always surprised me:

https://www.coingecko.com/en/nft/bored-ape-yacht-club

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#89
post #70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big issue with NFT's is that can't use them to flex on people as easily.

I think that was a big part of it, if you owned an expensive NFT and set it as your profile picture it gave you some cred with certain circles online.

But nothing like showing off a Monet to visitors.

Re: Tulip mania: when a single flower was worth more than a house (2025)

#90
post #14

The brief mention that the fallout wasn't as disastrous as myth would have it greatly understates just how exaggerated the popular account of tulip mania is. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-...

So many of these articles get it completely wrong. Economically. People weren't going crazy for tulips just because, the government had incentivized investment in tulips. The government at the time basically told people that they could not lose money on investing tulips. It should be a story about governments misallocating resources. That's it, but people quit. Keep twisting it into a story of psychology and mania wh…

From the article in the comment above, it seems like lack of government involvement is a factor. The article says the courts were unwilling to settle purchase contract disputes. Sounds like a government that is not performing what we today consider a core function, or even libertarians tend to agree civil court is an important function.
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