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U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

science.org

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Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#81

Post by nielsbot »

nickff wrote: post #39
epistasis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very common thing for corrupt governments. No rules are clear, so that those at the top can dictate whatever they want whenever they want. Which means that the only safe route is to always be on very very good terms with leadership. Very sad to see the US fall away from the rule of law, into kleptocracy. See also the way that grants are now being distributed at NCI and NSF. Only very large grants for many m…

This is also very foreseeable for an administrative state, and this slippery slope has been predicted for over a century. Rule by administrators (or bureaucrats) is just as opaque/unaccountable/corrupt, and as the extent of their power grew, it was inevitable that the political leadership would exploit the power (as has already happened many times before). It seems like nobody (at least on the liberal end of the spec…

The current path is replacing bureaucratic power with unchecked executive power which is the opposite of what you want. Bureaucrats who must follow the rule of law is what you want.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#82

Post by yongjik »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #27
platinumrad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't understand how the titans of industry who support the Republican party don't understand that science is the foundation on which their entire fortunes are built.

if you "genuinely" want to understand, start considering the opposite - what is the easiest way to defend policy like this? "science with outside helps the other side" - done. Current administration sees US as losing its positions, so the main answer is to close the leaks that feed its opponents with US effort

I don't understand the argument. Imagine flipping positions. You're saying that if an American researcher goes to China, gets employed by a Chinese university, and do research funded by China which is then commercialized by Chinese companies, the researcher is actually aiding America in expense of China.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#83

Post by airport_barfly »

What's really insidious is that they're not allowing these papers to be included in progress reports.

> After removing the 16 papers, “I said, well, Jesus, we’re not reporting anything. It’s very frustrating,” Drummond says. “I don’t know how they’re going to evaluate our productivity.”

This creates bad data where teams look less productive than they actually are. Next year, they'll use that as an excuse to cut funding.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#84

Post by albumen »

nickff wrote: post #63
rightbyte wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rule by administrators (or bureaucrats) is just as opaque/unaccountable/corrupt I don't agree. The division of power is most likely preferable. Otherwise the politician also become the beurocrat but way more arbitrary.

When the administrators/bureaucrats (whatever your preferred terms are) have very limited and defined powers, I agree they are different. When the administrative powers become wide-sweeping and ill-defined, the powers are difficult to differentiate from those of the politicians.

What you’re seeing is the result of the USA voting in a party and president that made it clear beforehand that they were going to install puppet civil servants to do their will. Most other developed countries have avoided this scenario.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#85

Post by wat10000 »

gwerbin wrote: post #48
epistasis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very common thing for corrupt governments. No rules are clear, so that those at the top can dictate whatever they want whenever they want. Which means that the only safe route is to always be on very very good terms with leadership. Very sad to see the US fall away from the rule of law, into kleptocracy. See also the way that grants are now being distributed at NCI and NSF. Only very large grants for many m…

To be fair, this has been a long time coming, and a lot of forces have been committed over decades to finally make this kind of thing possible. You're just seeing the next phase of the plan unfolding.

After listening to way too much Rush Limbaugh 30-some years ago, little of what's happening has been surprising, although that doesn't stop it from being distressing all the same.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#86

Post by JCTheDenthog »

nielsbot wrote: post #81
nickff wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also very foreseeable for an administrative state, and this slippery slope has been predicted for over a century. Rule by administrators (or bureaucrats) is just as opaque/unaccountable/corrupt, and as the extent of their power grew, it was inevitable that the political leadership would exploit the power (as has already happened many times before). It seems like nobody (at least on the liberal end of the spec…

The current path is replacing bureaucratic power with unchecked executive power which is the opposite of what you want. Bureaucrats who must follow the rule of law is what you want.

>Bureaucrats who must follow the rule of law is what you want.

Under Chevron we had the opposite of that: bureaucrats who had ridiculously wide latitude to make their own rules.

What we actually need is for congress to take back control instead of passing all power and authority to the executive branch.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#88

Post by pocksuppet »

jorblumesea wrote: post #51
epistasis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very common thing for corrupt governments. No rules are clear, so that those at the top can dictate whatever they want whenever they want. Which means that the only safe route is to always be on very very good terms with leadership. Very sad to see the US fall away from the rule of law, into kleptocracy. See also the way that grants are now being distributed at NCI and NSF. Only very large grants for many m…

The US is trending towards a Russian style oligarchy and these latest moves are just one of a wider pattern of trying to suppress academia, freedom of speech, personal freedoms.

> The US is a Russian style oligarchy

FTFY. From the outside, people can easily see it.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#89

Post by epistasis »

whateverboat wrote: post #72
gwerbin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's true that they want little innovation. This is a political move. It's a setup for an environment where only politically approved research can happen. So the innovation machine eventually restarts, but without all the side effects of things like unbiased public policy research and social justice movements that are politically misaligned with the ultimate goal of corporate autocracy presiding over te…

But eventually, this always fails as history has shown over and over again. It might take 40-50 years, but it will fail with devastating effects.

Yes, and one reason the US has been so successful is because in the past 1) it was generally agreed that family dynasties should have limited ability to pass wealth generation to generation, and 2) that governance should be separated from wealth.

That's all being abandoned.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#90

Post by pocksuppet »

JCTheDenthog wrote: post #86
nielsbot wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current path is replacing bureaucratic power with unchecked executive power which is the opposite of what you want. Bureaucrats who must follow the rule of law is what you want.

>Bureaucrats who must follow the rule of law is what you want. Under Chevron we had the opposite of that: bureaucrats who had ridiculously wide latitude to make their own rules. What we actually need is for congress to take back control instead of passing all power and authority to the executive branch.

Congress always had the power to remove delegated power from an institution if it didn't like how that institution was performing. It's also had the power to disband the executive branch regime at any point since January 20. Everything that is happening now is happening with the complete approval of Congress.
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