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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

bbc.com

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#81

Post by petcat »

nonethewiser wrote: post #30
jszymborski wrote: post #5

Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.

Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada? I would assume you can't just decide to leave. EDIT: oh, there is a process. thats the Clarity Act. This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

> Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada?

Does there need to be a legal process? If Albertans are willing to fight a war over it then all they need to do is declare that they don't recognize Ottawa's authority anymore and then go about trying to get other countries to recognize their independence.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#82

Post by danilocesar »

arrowsmith wrote: post #35
canadiantim wrote: post #25

If you want to understand why Alberta is holding a referendum on whether they should hold another separate legally-binding referendum in the future, you have to look at the recent court case where a judge in Alberta ruled that one of the two main petitions wasn’t allowed to proceed (The one that specifically called for a legally-binding referendum). The judges stated reason is that First Nations were not adequately c…

Why not just wait until the court case is resolved?

It might take years. Once it's solved, Smith, Trump and the americans financing this BS might be gone.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#83

Post by cwillu »

rdtsc wrote: post #78

With all the turmoil in US and other parts of the world I was completely unaware Albertans want to leave. > Smith acknowledged some of those concerns on Thursday, arguing that the federal government has tried to "move towards a more centralised American-style system" and is infringing on provincial jurisdiction. Ah interesting. I always thought US is rather decentralized with each state with its own government and la…

Some Albertans.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#84

Post by dgellow »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
nonethewiser wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of Democracy.

> This is part of Democracy It doesn’t need to be. 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.

Don’t look at our Swiss system, you won’t like what you see

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#86

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dgellow wrote: post #84
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is part of Democracy It doesn’t need to be. 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.

Don’t look at our Swiss system, you won’t like what you see

> Don’t look at our Swiss system, you won’t like what you see

I vote in Zurich :). Our system has cooling-off features that Alberta does not.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#87

Post by cf100clunk »

vkou wrote: post #71
cf100clunk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, First Nations lands in Alberta are indeed ''ceded'' under Treaties 6, 7, and 8 with the Crown. British Columbia is a province with a huge proportion of unceded land, but not Alberta.

The treaties with the crown require the crown consult with them before adjusting them. This means that Albertan secession can't happen without their consent, as it would by definition, completely and unilaterally adjust the terms of those treaties. The treaties were made in perpetuity, and if you are going to not hold up the crown's end of the promises, the FN's side - giving the crown and Alberta governance over the…

> 95% of Alberta is unceded First Nations land

That is wrong. You were probably thinking of British Columbia, where no such grand Treaties were ever enacted.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#88

Post by jgon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #61
tclancy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is truly trolling escaping the Internet. It's by no means the first instance; "The future is already here—it's just not very evenly distributed". The best time to have started taking this seriously was probably October 2015 or something. The next best time is now. These performative fits by thoughtless Adult Children get backed by real money, for purposes mysterious to me, but they seem purposes dark enough it w…

> This is truly trolling escaping the Internet The referendum? Or calling for imprisoning people for wrongthink?

"Wrongthink". Lol man, if you think that taking money from a country whose head of state has recently said that they may need to forcibly annex your own country, and then using that money to illegally obtain the personal information of citizens so you can attempt to break your country apart is merely "wrongthink" then you need to completely recalibrate yourself.

The really galling thing here is that as an American you would absolutely never tolerate a country like, say, China, supporting, both monetarily and otherwise, a group agitating for California to leave the union. You'd all call that treason loudly and proudly, but now that your country is doing it to someone else suddenly we have to slow-roll this.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#89

Post by jszymborski »

nonethewiser wrote: post #30
jszymborski wrote: post #5

Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.

Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada? I would assume you can't just decide to leave. EDIT: oh, there is a process. thats the Clarity Act. This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

It's a result of the second Quebec referendum. The Clarity Act may appear like it facilitates leaving the federation, but many critics (among them federalist and sovereigntists) believe that the law is too vague as it give the House of Commons the responsibility to determine "whether a clear majority had expressed itself". What that means in numerical terms? Nobody knows. Further the House of Commons has the right to override the referendum if they deem it to contradict any of the under-specified tenets of the Clarity act. Finally, you need to amend the Canadian constitution to finally separate, which according to my understanding, requires the approval of all the (remaining) provinces.

So it can be argued that the Clarity Act is a way to legislate friction to defederation.

Of course Quebec (and like Albertan) separatists hold that all this is moot and that they can self-govern as they wish following a referendum. Others look at the "no-deal" Brexit as a template.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#90

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jgon wrote: post #88
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is truly trolling escaping the Internet The referendum? Or calling for imprisoning people for wrongthink?

"Wrongthink". Lol man, if you think that taking money from a country whose head of state has recently said that they may need to forcibly annex your own country, and then using that money to illegally obtain the personal information of citizens so you can attempt to break your country apart is merely "wrongthink" then you need to completely recalibrate yourself. The really galling thing here is that as an American yo…

> you would absolutely never tolerate a country like, say, China, supporting, both monetarily and otherwise, a group agitating for California to leave the union

No. But I don’t think we’d put people in jail for it unless they were ready to overthrow the government. (Hell, we didn’t even charge the actual people trying to violently overthrow the government with treason.)

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