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50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

fortune.com

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Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#81

Post by SoftTalker »

shigawire wrote: post #54
mikestew wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like people just want to complain about anything associated with something they don't like regardless of relevance. I've noticed that we don't hear a lot about the EV boogyman taking down our electric grid now that AI has come to town.

I'd say the people complaining about AI likely see EVs as having some utility. While AI may have some utility, the amount of resources invested seems to make it more of a ponzi scheme waiting to pop.

EVs can also (at least in some cases) be charged from on-prem solar panels and not burden the public grid at all.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#82

Post by oooyay »

There are two simultaneous problems that I've come to understand with datacenters and the people that live in their proximity:

1. Somehow the public is always left holding the bag for increased transmission costs despite the cause of the increase being a single (or short list) of outliers.

2. The residential public, as is tradition, is always asked to scale down for industrial demand.

How can we imagine expanding a system that results in both of these outcomes? That, to me, seems to be the thing to fix first.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#83

Post by Noaidi »

oooyay wrote: post #82

There are two simultaneous problems that I've come to understand with datacenters and the people that live in their proximity: 1. Somehow the public is always left holding the bag for increased transmission costs despite the cause of the increase being a single (or short list) of outliers. 2. The residential public, as is tradition, is always asked to scale down for industrial demand. How can we imagine expanding a s…

The idea that capitalism off loads the cost of externalities onto the unwitting public is nothing new. This is just the most recent and obvious version. Air anbd water pollution are the old ones. They make the pollution and the public pays for it with superfund sites or increased health care costs.

The solution is having the consumer pay for the externalities when they use the product. But this would make AI so much more expensive. When you use AI you are exploiting other people. Just keep that in mind.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#84

Post by moritzwarhier »

hannahstrawbrry wrote: post #76
moritzwarhier wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is whether the government or the people are complaining then, right? Or do you have something else in mind? To me it's a classic "commons" problem. All our wealth in the end comes from extracting common resources and "making the best" of it. Whether "the best" is to sustain population levels or to maximize private capital is a political question. As of now, demanding things like free access to clean wa…

I don't think it's that clear of a delineation especially in situations like this with utilities and governments wrestling over regulations. I believe that a lot of the folks who have been in the drivers seat and ignored the chips in the windshield that is the fabric of our society are happy to have something to direct blame towards no matter their affiliations or underlying beliefs about how resources ought to be ma…

i understand your point, however your "driver's seat" metaphor blurs the accountability of political representation IMO. Are voters in the "driver's seat"? Local governments?

What I see as a valuable point is that federal governments with subsidies that "distort" markets for public goods and externality regulation, worsen the "tragedy of the commons".

Explaining many things to a naive person, or a kid, boils down to this type of issue, you can even extend it to nation states.

Without experience of violence, most people would intuitively understand that a "competition" between governments is problematic.

Same issue, different undertones: tax havens.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#85

Post by Noaidi »

xnx wrote: post #18

Related coverage without invoking the AI bogeyman: "Liberty Utilities needs to replace 75% of Tahoe power supply as NV Energy deal ends soon" https://mynews4.com/news/local/liberty-utilities-needs-to-re...

> without invoking the AI bogeyman

If AI is the cause of these data centers, why is it not the bogey man? This sounds like you personally want to use AI with out acknowledging the externalities and the burden your use of AI puts on your fellow citizens.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#86

Post by bragr »

instagib wrote: post #79

I didn’t realize the scale of data centers in northern Nevada. Residential customers will mostly pay 70% for the transmission line costs. 12 data centers by 2033 with 5,900 MW of power. “NV Energy is building Greenlink West, a 525-kV, $4.2 billion transmission line from Las Vegas to Yerington, expected online in May 2027. Schwarzrock said Liberty would be “first in the waiting line” when Greenlink opens, giving it ac…

At lot of west coast datacenters have moved to Nevada in search of lower land prices and better seismic risk. Vegas is a major hub now too.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#87

Post by Noaidi »

rickharrison wrote: post #66
freediddy wrote: post #14

This is like the movie Chinatown, where people were fighting over water, but now it's all about electricity. It sounds like Lake Tahoe residents kicked the can down the road and didn't care about electricity for so long that now they have to pay the piper. I think it's entire just that they have to bear the costs of their own electricity.

What exactly am I supposed to do as a resident to change how a state government regulated utility operates? Please respond with something other than "Vote", which I already do.

1) Boycott the products and share the idea with others. 2) Show up to town meetings BEFORE these data centers come. 3) Organize! This is the most important. Yes, voting does not matter, but being a loud constituency does.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#88

Post by zzzeek »

xnx wrote: post #18

Related coverage without invoking the AI bogeyman: "Liberty Utilities needs to replace 75% of Tahoe power supply as NV Energy deal ends soon" https://mynews4.com/news/local/liberty-utilities-needs-to-re...

from the article: "NV Energy plans to end its contract with Liberty in May 2027, citing growing demand and its own resource constraints."

the "growing demand" is the AI datacenters (the linked story goes into detail). it's the direct result, so while it might feel soothing that this other story doesnt actually mention "AI" it's mostly just an omission.

(edit) the issue is that there's a sudden tight timeline and yes as other comments mention it's too bad the issue wasn't addressed sooner, but that's not very unusual when there's no major impetus to force a change. and that whether or not AI/LLM is a net good for society (I literally have Claude writing code for me as I type this), the energy issue is one that seems to be a real one (unlike the water issue which mostly seems to be not so real).

the town^H^H^H^H region (edit) is already in the process of expanding their infrastructure to get power from elsewhere so things will be "fine", but this is a terrible time to have a government that is rabidly cancelling non-fossil energy projects as fast as possible.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#89

Post by hannahstrawbrry »

lenerdenator wrote: post #70
hannahstrawbrry wrote: post #61

A lot of these types of AI complaints feel like blaming a pothole for cracking your windshield in half even though you've been driving around with it full of chips and micro cracks for years. It's certainly exacerbated the issue to a point where it's impossible to ignore now but the warning signs have been there for years- utilities and municipalities failing to secure power and water resources for future residents,…

> utilities and municipalities failing to secure power To be fair, it's not as if they didn't often try to build more power. As it turns out, most people don't like having a massive fuel-burning power plant near their homes. Now they don't even like having solar panel fields near their homes. These people often are the same kind to show up at city hall or public utility board meetings and raise a fuss. Now, are they…

as an Arizonan with a rapidly rising water bill because of Colorado River standoffs that one is personal :)

The NIMBY problem is very real especially for an area filled with resorts and vacation homes, but when you have 20 years to figure it out I think there has to be more than that at play. They're ultimately going to fix the problem with a transmission line anyways.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#90

Post by hannahstrawbrry »

moritzwarhier wrote: post #84
hannahstrawbrry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's that clear of a delineation especially in situations like this with utilities and governments wrestling over regulations. I believe that a lot of the folks who have been in the drivers seat and ignored the chips in the windshield that is the fabric of our society are happy to have something to direct blame towards no matter their affiliations or underlying beliefs about how resources ought to be ma…

i understand your point, however your "driver's seat" metaphor blurs the accountability of political representation IMO. Are voters in the "driver's seat"? Local governments? What I see as a valuable point is that federal governments with subsidies that "distort" markets for public goods and externality regulation, worsen the "tragedy of the commons". Explaining many things to a naive person, or a kid, boils down to…

It's because the accountability isn't clear cut. Many hands have touched those levers of power over the last 20 years this specific problem has incubated, not all of them governmental.
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