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Airport Security Is Killing Us

businessweek.com

81–90 of 262 posts

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#81
post #33
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's excellent advice to those who live elsewhere, but there are hundreds of millions of people who cannot possibly follow your advice.

Luckily it's only ~4.5% of the world's population.

Useless statistic for what we're measuring.

What percentage of flights actually have the US as part of their journey would be a better measurement.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

If someone feels that they can tell me what I consent to, they do not understand the meaning of the word consent.

You can not walk up to the security checkpoint at the airport. To see why this matters, imagine that the TSA could, as soon you bought a ticket, search you in your home. The police can actually do that, if they have a warrant.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#83

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

Just something to keep in mind when comparing statistics between countries... The United States is approximately the size/population of Europe, and its individual states are approximately the size/population of European countries. It's always hard for the US to beat every state-sized country, just as there will always be US states with numbers above and below the overall average. The overall European average of 3.5 per 100,000 is somewhat less impressive.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#84
post #75
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

I'm very specifically talking about custody searches, not pat-downs or "enhanced pat-downs" (an imaginary term created by the TSA's marketing team). Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no Supreme court ruling on the constitutionality of any of these techniques in the context of airport security. I'm glad to be proven wrong. The most relevant ruling I know of was from a half century ago and it wasn't t…

Why would it be lawful for the TSA to search through your underwear, but not lawful for them to feel you up? Where would the Constitution be drawing that line?

The fact of the matter is that it's SCOTUS that sets the standards here, not the Constitution.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#85
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison. Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about th…

Finland is 5.3 million people.

Norway is 5 million people.

Sweden is 9.5 million people.

Michigan is 9.8 million people.

California is 37.6 million people.

New York is 19.4 million people

Germany is 81.7 million people.

Please keep scale in mind.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#86

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

I didn't downvote you, but it's very obviously this part: "And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live"

This implies enthusiastic support of constant US intervention in foreign lands. Maybe that's not what you meant, but I'm guessing it's what people are reacting to.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#87
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Then don't fucking fly. Seriously, you guys make it sound the TSA breaks into your homes and strips you. Yes, I disagree with a lot of their policies but this "Ron Paul" attitude of "the federal government actually has no power if you listen to my absurd interpretation of the constitution" isn't helping either. Its making my legitimate grievances sound lumped in with your extremist interpretations. You can have sane…

The Europeans don't have a 4th amendment.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#88
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison. Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about th…

"Sorta". It's more appropriate to compare it to the EU than to, say, Germany. The EU will still come out ahead in terms of murder rate, but it more accurately reflects the US in terms of both governmental structure and diversity of people (Louisiana is as different from Washington as Italy is from Finland)

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#89
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

I remember that consent/voluntarism being important to the lawfulness of airport searches, but I thought the big two elements of administrative search were (1) searches not being intended to collect evidence for criminal investigations and (2) officers not having discretion as to who to search.

Negatory. Consent is not relevant in the case of airports, per the 3rd and 9th circuit courts.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1265662.html

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand the situation is different if you really want your carry-on bag to stow above you. Or in the cabin. If you're the last to board, there's a very real possibility that they may have to gate-check your bag, which adds additional wait time at the end of your journey at best, and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst.

Which, of course, has become much more of a problem since the airlines started charging for checked bags/IRS made baggage fees tax-exempt. "...amounts paid for baggage services (such as Service G) are not subject to the tax" [ http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/1002004.pdf ]

I don't have the link handy, but there was a great article arguing that the airlines could actually save more money not charging for checked bags because less people will try to cram their oversized luggage into the overheads, speeding up boarding times. Thus allowing for a lower rate of delayed takeoffs, which, over a long enough timeline, allows for more flights in a day they can charge for (and the added bonus of better customer retention).
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