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New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

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Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#81
post #67

I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel. Compressing H2 to store it requires around half of the total energy that you can expect to get from its final application. Add in production losses and the difficulty in storage and handing, its always much worse than batteries. I can see the argument for use in industrial processes like steel manufacturing as a reducing agent, but not as a power source.

> I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel

Not everything is about "muh EV".

There is a reason that countries that have built significant Solar PV and Wind Turbine manufacturing capacity like China, Germany, SK, Japan, and India have also been investing in H2.

H2 as an energy market helps subsidize additional H2 usecases such as Ammonia/NH3 production for fertilizers (this has become critical due to the ongoing Iran War), steelmaking via H2 direct reduced/sponge iron, and (for China and India) coal gasification.

Additionally, REEs and critical minerals have increasingly become a bottleneck so additional options is good to have depending on the country, which is a major reason Japan heavily invested in hydrogen along with sodium solid state battery R&D.

And finally, the brutal truth is no major country actually cares about climate change - they care about energy security. Most larger countries have the ability to afford the externalities that arise from climate change, the three largest CO2 emitters in the world (China, US, India) are seeing CO2 emissions rise (mind you at a reduced rate, but still unsustainable from a climate change perspective), and in China and India's case continue to leverage coal as an energy security tool especially after the Iran War supply chain crisis highlighted the criticality of coal gasification for the fertilizers and agriculture.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#82
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, this will never happen due to NIMBY zoning laws.

Most rural areas have pretty permissive zoning. But also, other than Texas, I don't hear about a lot of regional over production. There's pretty good interconnection within and between the two major grids.

One reason you don't see overproduction is it's hard to get connected to grids. Local self-generation eliminates that roadblock. I think we're going to see increasing energy autarky in rural regions as solar gets cheaper.

Assuming ultra low cost thermal storage becomes a thing, there's going to be a market for small externally heated engines to recover that heat as power. That (+ batteries) will enable complete off-grid operation with PV at small (maybe 100 kW) commercial scale and larger.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the efficiency or longevity of electrolysis equipment is the limiting factor... The limiting factor is that natural gas is very cheap and cracking it to make blue hydrogen is really easy at scale, and gives off CO2 which is useful for injection into wells to increase production. That sets a price ceiling of hydrogen. At the other end of the scale, there are batteries to store 'free' electricity and rese…

Sometimes the price of natural gas is even negative, there is too much of it. "Natural gas at Texas’s Waha hub is trading at negative $7.05 per million British Thermal Units, hitting a record low of negative $9.52 on April 15." https://www.barrons.com/articles/natural-gas-texas-negative-... There are different kinds of water electrolysis equipment, with different capital expenditure and operating expenses. "Alkaline…

> Sometimes the price of natural gas is even negative, there is too much of it.

Googling that tells me there was/is too much of it locally.

The gas is a byproduct of drilling for oil, and there was/is insufficient pipeline capacity to move it to consumers.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#84
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone give me a semi-technical reason on why the hydrogen division are delusional? I'm actually convinced of it "osmotically", but I just don't know enough about it. I've got chem 101 behind me but otherwise I'm a finance & tech guy. It would be nice to actually understand why it can't be done though.

Assuming we're talking about cars/trucks, one major reason hydrogen doesn't make sense is efficiency: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/OrLRA/s1/efficiency-compar... If we manage to get enough solar such that energy essentially becomes infinite then the inefficiency would no longer matter. Otherwise, it would only make sense in vehicles that require high energy density like airplanes.

There is already free energy. In 2024, California curtailed 3400 GWh of solar. Hydrogen is one of the easier ways to load shift that to winter or processes which need something denser than batteries. I actually prefer synthetic methane (worse efficiency) because it is more immediately usable.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65364

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#85
post #67

I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel. Compressing H2 to store it requires around half of the total energy that you can expect to get from its final application. Add in production losses and the difficulty in storage and handing, its always much worse than batteries. I can see the argument for use in industrial processes like steel manufacturing as a reducing agent, but not as a power source.

In a lot of places in the world, the marginal cost of electricity is zero, if your capital costs are low enough to only purchase when there is excess wind. The cost of batteries for long-term storage is still prohibitively high. In contrast, large hydrogen (or methanol, etc further products) are relatively cheap to store. Those two things put together is pretty much it. There is massive room for additional wind capac…

How strange utility grids are spending on BSS and not hydrogen infrastructure.

How strange utility grids are spending on HVDC transmission and not hydrogen infrastructure.

HN commenters should ring up their local electrical grid operators and set them straight /s

Also, if you have extremely low cost of electricity: you build manufacturing nearby that needs massive amounts of energy, like metal refineries. Or you subsidize electric transport.

You don't pour money into a fuel that is a logistical headache and a half, a fuel that nobody uses, and can only be converted back into electricity with the standard terrible internal combustion / turbine efficiencies.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#86
post #67

I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel. Compressing H2 to store it requires around half of the total energy that you can expect to get from its final application. Add in production losses and the difficulty in storage and handing, its always much worse than batteries. I can see the argument for use in industrial processes like steel manufacturing as a reducing agent, but not as a power source.

> I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel Not everything is about "muh EV". There is a reason that countries that have built significant Solar PV and Wind Turbine manufacturing capacity like China, Germany, SK, Japan, and India have also been investing in H2. H2 as an energy market helps subsidize additional H2 usecases such as Ammonia/NH3 production for fertilizers (this has become critical du…

You don't need hydrogen to smelt, refine, recycle, whatever, metal.

You build an electric arc furnace.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel Not everything is about "muh EV". There is a reason that countries that have built significant Solar PV and Wind Turbine manufacturing capacity like China, Germany, SK, Japan, and India have also been investing in H2. H2 as an energy market helps subsidize additional H2 usecases such as Ammonia/NH3 production for fertilizers (this has become critical du…

You don't need hydrogen to smelt, refine, recycle, whatever, metal. You build an electric arc furnace.

You still need iron to be processed in steelmaking. THIS is where the carbon bottleneck in steelmaking exists because pig iron has a high carbon ratio. H2 helps with processing sponge iron which dramatically reduces the carbon ratio within iron ingots used for steelmaking.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of places in the world, the marginal cost of electricity is zero, if your capital costs are low enough to only purchase when there is excess wind. The cost of batteries for long-term storage is still prohibitively high. In contrast, large hydrogen (or methanol, etc further products) are relatively cheap to store. Those two things put together is pretty much it. There is massive room for additional wind capac…

How strange utility grids are spending on BSS and not hydrogen infrastructure. How strange utility grids are spending on HVDC transmission and not hydrogen infrastructure. HN commenters should ring up their local electrical grid operators and set them straight /s Also, if you have extremely low cost of electricity: you build manufacturing nearby that needs massive amounts of energy, like metal refineries. Or you subs…

> How strange utility grids are spending on BSS and not hydrogen infrastructure.

BSS is usable when you need hours of storage, not when you need days.

> How strange utility grids are spending on HVDC transmission and not hydrogen infrastructure.

HVDC makes sense in certain conditions, but not others. You need to have alternate consumers/producers available that are not correlated with you.

> Also, if you have extremely low cost of electricity: you build manufacturing nearby that needs massive amounts of energy, like metal refineries. Or you subsidize electric transport.

Extremely low costs some of the time. Not low at all average costs. Metal refineries have significant capital costs and shutdown costs. You are not going to profitably operate one if you need to shut it down when the wind calms down, or if you are running it on batteries. The kind of existing industries that can make use of intermittently cheap power have already been scaled up, and we need more to keep building more renewables.

> HN commenters should ring up their local electrical grid operators and set them straight /s

I don't have to, because there are significant pilot projects ongoing.

This is new, and requires higher initial capital outlay than batteries (which have the significant advantage that it's easier to do small projects and then scale them up), so of course it's going more slowly. But there are things that hydrogen (+ things derived from hydrogen. Storing it as gas is not usually the best option, but if you have the gas you can refine it further at very low cost.) can in principle do that batteries simply cannot, like time-shift production by 3 months.

But seriously, you need to consider different metrics for different situations. If your data is from California or Australia, maybe consider that it is not applicable to all of the rest of the world?

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#89
post #67

I truly do not understand the fixation with hydrogen as a fuel. Compressing H2 to store it requires around half of the total energy that you can expect to get from its final application. Add in production losses and the difficulty in storage and handing, its always much worse than batteries. I can see the argument for use in industrial processes like steel manufacturing as a reducing agent, but not as a power source.

I think the best argument for hydrogen is for automobiles. Existing cars can be converted to use it, doesn't spray pollution all over the city, and can be refilled quickly unlike a battery.

Re: New stainless steel can survive conditions for hydrogen production in seawater

#90
This would be great for other use cases too like climbing bolts and anchors in coastal areas. Lots of areas are switching to titanium glue-ins which are expensive, but I wonder if this could enable more affordable option. A climber recently died in Greece after multiple bolts failed: https://gripped.com/news/rock-climber-dies-in-kalymnos-after...
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