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The Year 2512

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81–90 of 95 posts

Re: The Year 2512

#82
OP makes a number of mistakes about the past.

For starters it wasn't Portuguese conquistadores who descended on South America 500 years ago but the Spanish. The Portuguese had more important operations in Asia at the time. It wasn't until the 17th that the Portuguese really started to exploit part of what today is known as Brazil, part because a chunk of Brazil used to be part of the Spanish Empire, not the Portuguese.

Of course we are not going back to hunter-gatherers, that's stupid on the face of it. Even after a massive collapse the first thing survivors will do is try to salvage whatever machinery they can find and start anew, first with crops and eventually industry. The "dark ages" weren't really dark, the north of the Roman Empire had always been underdeveloped which is why after the fall it continued to be a number of backwater kingdoms while Venice remained as a center of scientific and cultural development.

Also I don't get why OP comes with all these amazing sometimes insane technologies but rules out any attempts at geoengineering which rely on technology which we already have (but we don't deploy because the costs are still too high and the political motivation too low to support it).

And his understanding of the roots of racism is egregious, he completely ignores the vast political and economical reasons for recent and still enduring racism in many parts of the world. For example the Rwandan genocide background lies on which tribe had the upper hand during the colonial age and was thus wealthier and more powerful. It had next to nothing to do with religion or patriarchy.

Re: The Year 2512

#83
post #11

It is of course hard to predict 500 years out. Hell, it's hard to predict 20 years out. Did anyone really see the world of today even 20 years ago? But I'll take my own fanciful stab. I don't foresee either an energy or a climate crisis. There is a hard limit on how expensive energy gets because at some point you can turn totally renewable energy into a fuel of some sort, ideally taking CO2 out of the atmosphere to d…

> I don't foresee either an energy or a climate crisis. There is a hard limit on how expensive energy gets because at some point you can turn totally renewable energy into a fuel of some sort, ideally taking CO2 out of the atmosphere to do it. It's not cost effective now because energy is so cheap. But like I said: there's a limit to how expensive it can get. I used to agree with you until I read this terribly though…

The "energy trap" as described in the linked article would indeed be terribly troubling in a centrally planned economy. I'm still optimistic (for the moment) that there are private players who would cheerfully make those large investments today for a chance at owning a future slice of the energy pie.

Re: The Year 2512

#84
post #28
post #8

That's what I call fun Saturday reading . . . "GM mangroves that can grow in salinated intertidal zones and synthesize gasoline, shipping it out via their root networks, is one option." That one sentence overloaded my system with a visual day-dream about the potential for our future - the way it's written evokes that famous Bladerunner line: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the…

As a later comment points out, in a manner as arresting as the vision it criticises, roots are how plants get their inputs. The soil feeds the plants! - not the other way around. But, maybe in 500 years they'll have fixed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerenchyma

Wetland plants (like Mangroves) already transport substances from their leaves to their roots.

Re: The Year 2512

#85
Since I started reading Yudkowsky/LessWrong heavily, I tend to have 2 strong predictions about the future:

1. AI will be invented sometime, and this will be a radical game-changer. In that everything after it will be hard/impossible to predict today.

2. We will eventually conquer death. Hopefully soon.

The second belief I find to be very, very strange for most people I talk to about this - people really can't imagine it, and most don't want to imagine it.

By the way, the other major prediction I have about the future - we will all be vegeterians, and future generations will look at us as barbarians for eating animals. I'm not a vegeterian, but I believe that this is inevitable, as soon as we have the technology to make animal-like foods without killing animals, both in terms of health and taste.

Re: The Year 2512

#86

Is solar shade so much hardrer to launch than retooling all the biology to live at 45C and still dealing with the world that sucks? Launching a large slightly opaque mirror to shade select aread of Earth does not seem impossible to me. It seems he bet everything on climate being out of control.

Simple answer: Tragedy of the commons.

If your nation consists of 1/6th of the world's population, you bear 1/6th the burden of the global warming triggered by your fossil fuel use, but get 100% of the energy output from your fossil fuel use. Conversely, if you unilaterally decide to build a giant shade for the earth, you foot 100% of the bill yet only receive 1/6th of the overall benefits.

Re: The Year 2512

#87
post #11

It is of course hard to predict 500 years out. Hell, it's hard to predict 20 years out. Did anyone really see the world of today even 20 years ago? But I'll take my own fanciful stab. I don't foresee either an energy or a climate crisis. There is a hard limit on how expensive energy gets because at some point you can turn totally renewable energy into a fuel of some sort, ideally taking CO2 out of the atmosphere to d…

" getting certain elements from space is going to be economically tricky (rather than technologically tricky) compared to how cheap it is to pull stuff out of the ground"

That completely changes when you want to use those elements in space, rather than on earth. I think that could be the more normal thing to do; if we go to space, it will be to stay there. Why lift stuff out of earth's gravitation well that you can get from the arteries belt?

Re: The Year 2512

#88

Seems inconsistent to bring up nanotech, etc., yet keep climate hell as a fixed background. Of course attempted fixes will run into issues, small or catastrophic, but they're bound to exist.

I think climate change is inevitable. Whether from human causes or from the natural climate cycles we must assume that the sea levels will change, even if only temporarily from a historical perspective. Even if the sea levels only rise 1 metre for 5 years, that is still a big refugee problem. What is worrying is that those most likely to be affected by rising sea levels are in general those least able to cope with it…

I agree that climate hell appears to have already started. But 500 years is a while, and I'd expect attempts to roll it back starting by 400 years before that time. (Assuming with the author that tech civ continues, etc.) The most plausible reasons against would be conflict or a dominant power that prefers the warmer globe.

Re: The Year 2512

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think climate change is inevitable. Whether from human causes or from the natural climate cycles we must assume that the sea levels will change, even if only temporarily from a historical perspective. Even if the sea levels only rise 1 metre for 5 years, that is still a big refugee problem. What is worrying is that those most likely to be affected by rising sea levels are in general those least able to cope with it…

I agree that climate hell appears to have already started. But 500 years is a while , and I'd expect attempts to roll it back starting by 400 years before that time. (Assuming with the author that tech civ continues, etc.) The most plausible reasons against would be conflict or a dominant power that prefers the warmer globe.

>a dominant power that prefers the warmer globe

The Arctic League!

Re: The Year 2512

#90
There's an interesting meta-consideration here, and that is how humanity wants things to be in 500 years. It's almost like Stross is considering the weight of action as something that we can't choose. But really, I think our collective choices can make a world of difference.

If we choose to protect biodiversity today, if we choose to keep our climate optimal for naturally evolved life, then our future in 500 years can be a lot better than anything Stross has described.

For example, I think we will indeed have AI, but it will turn out that AI, like a human baby, has to be raised by parents. The process of "programming" an AI is just like the process of "programming" a person - it's messy, and it takes a lot of personal effort and fortitude.

I also think it is likely that the rules of our universe allow only one successful colonization attempt per home planet, or perhaps home system. This limits the spread of any Life to linear (rather than geometric), and it also means that the odds of life meeting each other on the same planet are extremely small. (It goes without saying that there is Life in a lot of places, but that it rarely succeeds in the singular effort of colonizing another system).

More and more of our productive efforts will be created and consumed in virtual environments. But that doesn't meant that the physical will be ignored. "Slow space" is important, and beautiful in it's own way, and we evolved with it. We're not going to leave it behind.

Social constructs will become self-aware, and driven by ever greater understanding of ourselves and our relationship to the world. We will truly choose our beliefs, and aggregate (virtually and physically) with others of the same belief. Indeed, I can imagine a world government who's primary purpose is not adjudicating national disputes, but rather protecting the rights of new adults to choose what they believe, and to live their lives wherever those beliefs are most closely held.

The US and all nations will evolve according to what they really are: explicit belief systems that exploit energy/food/material resources in order to protect/promote their belief system. We will probably see a spectrum of US-like nations, that differ only on second-order considerations. Basically, what we have today, only more explicit and with far more porous borders.

It seems very unlikely that the majority will actually modify their bodies with computer interface technology. The inherent risks are far too high when a device doesn't have a physical off switch. Consider the nightmare scenario where a hacker hacks into your visual cortex, and Rick rolls you. this is far worse than blindness - it could drive you insane (really).

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