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New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

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Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#81
post #53

It really baffles (and amazes) me that Old English is practically unintelligible to modern day English speakers.

If you go back half a millennium, most languages are the same. The sign above the door at the primary school outside Karlstejn Castle is unreadable to a speaker of modern Czech. School website: https://www.skolakarlstejn.cz/ Better pics can be found easily. It's quite rare for a language to remain close enough to be intelligible. English is a mongrel, with influences from old French and ancient Saxon and Norse and Ce…

Anglo-Saxon + Norman French + Latin + Greek. Surprisingly few words from Celtic languages.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#82

It really baffles (and amazes) me that Old English is practically unintelligible to modern day English speakers.

That's because we're fed the massively oversimplified idea that English was one language, spoken all over the UK, and developing in a single straight line from Old English, to Middle English, to modern English.

It's obvious that today's connected society - leading to any single language being very widespread for mutual intelligibility - bears no resemblance to the way things were many centuries ago. But we're conditioned to think in terms of our own experience until we really think about it or have it pointed out. Back then, the UK was split into many different dialects, largely consolidated later by the use of the printing press. Those dialects had so much difference in some ways, that snippets of them could sound like related-but-different languages.

(And there's very little relative difference between modern English and "middle English", which is easy for us to read, notwithstanding differences in the not-yet-standardised spelling.)

And most importantly, across history, the literary language has always been the language of the elites, the ruling class, which is often not the same language spoken by the plebs. Since the language they spoke is therefore missing from the historical record, it's sometimes open to interpretation and guesswork. Many historical linguists try to make it known that middle-to-modern English can't have come directly from the dialect of Anglo-Saxon we now call Old English, but overturning (or even clarifying) dogma from the early days of any field, against years of written encyclopedias, is very difficult.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite what The Poetry Foundation claims, and despite the Modern English translation by one of their own, the Early West Saxon text is Public Domain. Although The Poetry Foundation still promises to track all your content The OP article, published by Trinity College Dublin, and the original, and the photograph, are expressly CC-BY-ND 4.0. This is not a "free license", but it is a Creative Commons License. https://th…

It looks to me like Poetry Foundation did it right. The modern translation has a copyright notice, the Early West Saxon version has none. I was being a little coy as anything older than Mickey Mouse is fair game. It's not a particularly marginal call, if you know what I mean

[deleted]

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#84

Here's the old English poem! https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47296/caedmons-hymn-5... Should be in the public domain by now eh? Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard metudæs mehti and his modgithanc uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs eci dryctin or astelidæ. he ærist scop ældu barnum hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend tha middingard moncynnæs uard eci dryctin æfter tiadæ firum foldu frea allmehtig I couldn't make hide…

I think also there's barnum = bairn's (as in children), and foldu = fold (as in sheepfold). Or just field, same thing.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo... that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w/ my own money (along w/ _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.

Pedantry: Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation" Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard" Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard / ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" / https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...

Or even garden.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#86
post #24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

Yes. There is a reason why a family of languages is known as Indo-European.

For something completely different, try learning Mandarin.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#87
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

There was a UK TV show years ago that I've always remembered where the presenter tried to buy a cow using Old English with a Frisian speaking farmer in Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34

You'd probably enjoy "The Story of English" series:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&si=Kw3J...

or "The History of English" series:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27...

In the second series, there is a weather report in Frisian that vaguely sounds like English.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedantry: Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation" Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard" Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard / ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" / https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...

Or even garden.

Thank you. I’m not American and was trying work that out.

I went straight to metric and Middle Metre approximate and is wrong.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#89
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless. It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to…

> The objective would be to stop the death and eradication of languages, e.g., Welsh, German, or any of the numerous other smaller languages and dialects

How is German, a langauge natively spoken in two nation states and quite a few neighboring regions, being eradicated?

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#90

Here's the old English poem! https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47296/caedmons-hymn-5... Should be in the public domain by now eh? Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard metudæs mehti and his modgithanc uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs eci dryctin or astelidæ. he ærist scop ældu barnum hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend tha middingard moncynnæs uard eci dryctin æfter tiadæ firum foldu frea allmehtig I couldn't make hide…

I think also there's barnum = bairn's (as in children), and foldu = fold (as in sheepfold). Or just field, same thing.

Huh, we don't have bairn in the US. I totally missed "foldu". The literal translation is that god made earth a pasture, then?
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