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CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

arstechnica.com

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Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#81

Post by sandworm101 »

dgacmu wrote: post #25
sandworm101 wrote: post #8

> have a minute to plug in? Still sufficient to get from 10 to 35 percent state of charge. Scaling that to something the size of an EV pack will require one massive cable/connector. Call it 5kw/h in 1/60 hours, thats 3000kw, at 700v thats still roughly 4000 amps. (Please correct my head math.) Charging one car could suck up more power than an entire neighbourhood. Say four or five chargers operating at once ... every…

What's nice there, though, is that the total amount of _energy_ needed at a charging station is roughly fixed( ), regardless of how fast you charge the cars. So if you're provisioned for the needed total energy inflow, you can to a reasonable degree compensate for having a more bursty high-rate charging load by having some amount of local energy storage as a buffer. ( ) - Assuming you provision for the highest-traffi…

For numbers, just follow traffic at a busy gas station. Roughly 100 vehicles per hour is typical. So imagine having to charge 100 Teslas per hour, or just over one telsa per minute. That is still an insane amount of power.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#82

Post by adrian_b »

sandworm101 wrote: post #80
adrian_b wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others have pointed, you have made a mistake in your computation. The currents that are required are only of hundreds of amps and the latest chargers can provide up to 1000 A. Also like others have said, it does not matter how fast you charge a car, the total energy consumption is the same, so fast chargers do not require changes in the power supply of a charging station. The fast chargers that enable this full…

Ya, i missed a 0, but chargers with batteries are irrelevant for charging stations by a highway like a modern gas station. They have a constant flow of vehicles. There will be no time for a buffer battery when the next customer is maybe 45 seconds behind the last. A buffer battery may have a place for a home charger, but a constant-use commerical charger is a very different thing. Or think of a rental car stand at an…

A charging station must be supplied with a power determined by the number of cars it must charge during a given time interval, e.g. a day or an hour.

It does not matter if it charges 30 cars per hour by having 3 chargers that charge in 6 minutes (including connection/disconnection times) or by having 15 chargers that charge in 30 minutes.

So it is not the charging speed that matters, but the amount of electric vehicles that want to use a charging station.

The charging speed matters only for the car owners, as it determines the time they must spend at the charging station.

Normally, a charger that is 10 times faster is not 10 times more expensive, so faster chargers should also benefit the charging station owners, because they would need to invest less for servicing a given amount of traffic, by buying less chargers.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#83

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

cestith wrote: post #64
dirck-norman wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 minute swap is not needed for this.

Well, if it degrades to 90% after three years, and let’s extrapolate to 81% after another two to three years, then a battery swap in 5 minutes might be reasonable to do instead of charging once every three to five years or so. I guess it depends on the quality and retained capacity on the batteries being swapped in.

> Well, if it degrades to 90% after three years, and let’s extrapolate to 81% after another two to three years, then a battery swap in 5 minutes might be reasonable

eh? are you saying that something that is done once every 5 years has to be done inside 5 minutes? I strongly disagree.

> charging once every three to five years or so

Um, that's not how charging works at all.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#84

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

baq wrote: post #22
phh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA says "After 1,000 fast charges, the battery should retain more than 90 percent of its original state of charge, the company said." I can't really judge whether 1000 charges is a reasonable target for a car, though i think that 1000 fast charges is reasonable. It should probably be able to push to 5000 slow charges and 500 fast charges, which should fit a lot of use-cases.

1000 charges 10-80% for a passenger car at 300-400 km per charge is 300 000 - 400 000 km of fast charge driving. I'd say it's perfectly fine for most people?

The point is that most charges do not have to be fast charges. The usual case is to charge slowly when parked at a "Destination Charger" or overnight at home. Electricity supply is almost everywhere.

You have to change the mentality of "I only get gas when I travel out of my way to the gas station, so the gas refill has to be fast". EVs just do not work like that, and overnight charging is far more convenient that having to go get gas.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#85

Post by cestith »

crote wrote: post #71
cestith wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if it degrades to 90% after three years, and let’s extrapolate to 81% after another two to three years, then a battery swap in 5 minutes might be reasonable to do instead of charging once every three to five years or so. I guess it depends on the quality and retained capacity on the batteries being swapped in.

The vast majority of charging is done at home, though. Five-minute-charging/swapping is basically a gimmick to show off to your friends, and only really sees (questionable) use during that once-a-year road trip. The main value in these technologies is to shut up the "But sometimes I want to drive for 20 hours without being forced to take even a single 30-minute break!" pseudo-argument as to why an EV is "impossible"…

When my road trip is in negative temperatures, I appreciate not having to be in the cold for too long. I think the bigger adoption issue is thoughts of scaling the charging stations. If there’s a line of cars at a liquid fuel pump, one can still get fuel in twenty or thirty minutes. If there’s a line of four cars at every charger and every car takes 15 minutes to charge on average, that’s an hour before you can start.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#86

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

sandworm101 wrote: post #81
dgacmu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's nice there, though, is that the total amount of _energy_ needed at a charging station is roughly fixed( ), regardless of how fast you charge the cars. So if you're provisioned for the needed total energy inflow, you can to a reasonable degree compensate for having a more bursty high-rate charging load by having some amount of local energy storage as a buffer. ( ) - Assuming you provision for the highest-traffi…

For numbers, just follow traffic at a busy gas station. Roughly 100 vehicles per hour is typical. So imagine having to charge 100 Teslas per hour, or just over one telsa per minute. That is still an insane amount of power.

That's not the math though. Approximately 0% of those vehicles at the busy gas station ever fuel up at home. Most of those EV fuel up most of the time at home or at a "Destination Charger" at places other than a roadside DC Super-Fast charger.

I see figures given that around 80% of EV charging is done at home (1). That doesn't mean that the other 20% has to be super-fast though, it will be less than that.

https://www.energy.gov/topics/national-ev-charging-network#

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#87

Post by sandworm101 »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #86
sandworm101 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For numbers, just follow traffic at a busy gas station. Roughly 100 vehicles per hour is typical. So imagine having to charge 100 Teslas per hour, or just over one telsa per minute. That is still an insane amount of power.

That's not the math though. Approximately 0% of those vehicles at the busy gas station ever fuel up at home. Most of those EV fuel up most of the time at home or at a "Destination Charger" at places other than a roadside DC Super-Fast charger. I see figures given that around 80% of EV charging is done at home (1). That doesn't mean that the other 20% has to be super-fast though, it will be less than that. https://www…

Only people with houses get to charge at home. All the non-rich who don't own houses are stuck with commercial chargers. It will be the reality for so so many people.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#88

Post by sandworm101 »

adrian_b wrote: post #82
sandworm101 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, i missed a 0, but chargers with batteries are irrelevant for charging stations by a highway like a modern gas station. They have a constant flow of vehicles. There will be no time for a buffer battery when the next customer is maybe 45 seconds behind the last. A buffer battery may have a place for a home charger, but a constant-use commerical charger is a very different thing. Or think of a rental car stand at an…

A charging station must be supplied with a power determined by the number of cars it must charge during a given time interval, e.g. a day or an hour. It does not matter if it charges 30 cars per hour by having 3 chargers that charge in 6 minutes (including connection/disconnection times) or by having 15 chargers that charge in 30 minutes. So it is not the charging speed that matters, but the amount of electric vehicl…

The faster the chargers the more cars can be charged per hour. Commercial vendors for "drive through" (as opposed to parked) will want the fastest chargers.

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#89

Post by [deleted] »

taskforcegemini wrote: post #69
0xfaded wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I giggled at this. A well designed urban environment would have no cars.

but you/stuff still needs to go from a to b. taxis (or individual self driving pods) should however be the future of public transport.

[deleted]

Re: CATL's new LFP battery can charge from 10 to 98% in less than 7 minutes

#90

Post by newyankee »

0xfaded wrote: post #46
newyankee wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a well designed urban environment where cars have space for 2-3 modular batteries with swapping capabilities, I see no reason why taxis etc. need to carry battery payload > 150 km of range needed for local use, which would mean better fuel efficiency as well. Battery swapping done right is integral to this

Sorry, but I giggled at this. A well designed urban environment would have no cars.

In an ideal world, yes. But the only way to move forward is somehow modifying the existing world for better, step by step.
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