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Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

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Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#81
post #56

For absolutely no good reason bidirectional charging in Germany is still forbidden. Electric cars could be used to store and buffer the overproduction of electric energy. But no, the german burocrats forbid this solution. Ridiculous!

AFAIK regulatory changes were needed and implemented recently. Commercial offers for Vehicle to Grid started this month.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#82
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be more relevant in the future, but it's still worth thinking about. Right now intermittent energy sources cover around 15-18% of the total energy consumption in Germany[1]. And seasonal variability is covered by other methods (natural gas and others). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File:...

And Germany right now have battery storage equivalent of fully powering Germany for about 30 minute sand raising up every month, which is quite wild.. https://battery-charts.de/ With those feeding on negative-priced electricity, intermittent sources will only get more economical to the detriment of gas and nuclear.

https://openenergytracker.org/en/docs/germany/storage/#total

Total installed capacity 2026:

Pumped hydro Germany 35 GWh Battery storage 26 GWh

Average daily German electricity production is 1300 GWh.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on the size and placement of the oversupply, this could cause localized grid overloading. "However, BDEW warned that around half of the new capacity came in the form of small-scale systems under 100 kilowatt each, which under current rules feed into the grid whatever they produce, without the option to curtail production when this is necessary to ensure grid stability." https://www.cleanenergywire.o…

IIIRC, new individual systems are already required to have the capability to wind down export based on external signals.

Is this required even for PV systems under 7 kWp ? I could only find new regulations from March 2025 for PV systems over 7 kWp.

https://www.mvv.de/photovoltaik/ratgeber/solarspitzengesetz-...

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#84

German excellence, shitting the bed both ways. From JP Morgan's 16th Annual Energy Paper, March 2026 https://cdn.jpmorganfunds.com/content/dam/jpm-am-aem/global/... > In 2024 we estimated that had Germany not decommissioned nuclear power after the Fukushima accident, it would have needed 50% less electricity generation from fossil fuels, 84% less generation from imported natural gas, 27% less fossil fuel capacity and…

Decision to decommissioned nuclear power was a political decision not economical, technological or ecological decision. Decision based on fear.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But since 2/3rd of the fossil energy is wasted, it's more like 40% of the useful energy. Some people don't know about the primary energy fallacy, others know about it and try to exploit it, so you should be suspicious of the opinions of anyone trying to use it suggest lack of progress and futility.

If you measure useful energy as electricity output of a fossil fuel plant then yes. But in many cases the waste heat is used in other applications for example district heating or low grade industrial heat. If you use fossil fuel to directly drive an industrial process, for example melting of ores/metals/glass then the efficiency is much higher.

Electricity can still be more efficient for many of these with heat pumps, like indoor heating and steam production. The gap is smaller then for working engines of cause.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#86
post #3

As if negative prices trickle down to the consumer. The electricity market is byzantine, rigged and has resulted in higher energy prices in the last 20 years.

A very large percentage of Australians are about to start getting free power for three hours a day [1].

So yes, it sure does!

[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2503532-australia-is-ge...

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#87

If it were just easy to buy a bunch of batteries and profit from this by selling the same energy during evening/night. But that is only reserved for the big players I guess.

I don't sell mine, but I time-shift with a small pile of batteries (about 10kWh) and it's pretty reasonable. I save about usd $30/month. It's basically a big ups that will pay for itself in ten years, and I get backup power.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy prices being low is interesting and important right now, since we are undergoing a petrochemical energy price increase shock.

Prices being negative for one day does not make energy prices low. The "green shift" in Germany has increased the use of fossil fuels and the price of energy. From JP Morgan's 16th Annual Energy Paper, March 2026 https://cdn.jpmorganfunds.com/content/dam/jpm-am-aem/global/... > In 2024 we estimated that had Germany not decommissioned nuclear power after the Fukushima accident, it would have needed 50% less electricit…

> Prices being negative for one day does not make energy prices low.

My apologies, that was poorly worded - I didn't mean to imply that all energy prices were low across the board. Of course they are not.

It's an interesting indicator, not (yet) a systemic change. And as I said in answer to the parent comment, it's a important subject right now because of the petrochemical price shock.

Nevertheless, if I were to interpret your statement as unilaterally as you interpreted mine: you said "negative prices are not low prices", which is wrong as a matter of arithmetic.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#89
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an indicator of how far they've come in supplanting fossil fuels. Today it's one day; soon it will be two, then a week. They can start thinking about next steps.

No. From JP Morgan's 16th Annual Energy Paper, March 2026 https://cdn.jpmorganfunds.com/content/dam/jpm-am-aem/global/... > In 2024 we estimated that had Germany not decommissioned nuclear power after the Fukushima accident, it would have needed 50% less electricity generation from fossil fuels, 84% less generation from imported natural gas, 27% less fossil fuel capacity and 42% less natural gas capacity. Another roa…

Two things can be true at the same time, such as: Germany decommissioning nuclear power was a huge loss, and also, rising use of renewables is a success story.

Re: Germany Power Prices Turn Deeply Negative on Renewables Surge

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIIRC, new individual systems are already required to have the capability to wind down export based on external signals.

Is this required even for PV systems under 7 kWp ? I could only find new regulations from March 2025 for PV systems over 7 kWp. https://www.mvv.de/photovoltaik/ratgeber/solarspitzengesetz-...

I guess „it‘s complicated“. For our system, 6kWp with iMSys, the grid operator can cap the ingestion as they see fit. For systems over 7kWp, you are required to install a iMSys that allows them to cap. Systems without a iMSys must have the capability to cap to 60% (either at all times or „intelligently“ depending on your consumption). BUT if you install anything today, you most likely will install a iMSys anyway. Also export fees for 7kWp and below are a bit of a joke anyway.
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