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What being ripped off taught me

belief.horse

81–90 of 247 posts

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#81
OP wasn't ripped off, OP just forgot to define their contract. Like, entirely.

Nobody forced OP to work 11-14 hour days. Contracting 101 stipulates that you define your hours ahead of time. You come in, you provide your expertise, and you leave at the end of the day. Let the client's junior employees work long hours. Not your problem.

OP brought their own equipment, which is totally fine but "who provides equipment" is also in the contract from the start. OP should have made a list of equipment that the client will require to complete such a project and stipulate a client budget be set aside to cover any shortcomings as they arise.

The contract is where you define when you get paid. "Deposit is XYZ quantity, non-refundable. Contractor will be paid for the upcoming week in advance by X date. Failure to remit payment will halt work."

I understand that the point of this blog piece is that it was a learning experience for OP but this stuff is pretty obvious isn't it? This is pretty much what comes up when you google stuff like "how to get into freelance contracting." I'm shocked and feel bad for OP for letting things get this far. Sadly, they were not ripped off by anyone but themselves.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#82
post #76

There's not any incentives to pay you when they're in China and there's no legal recourse from the US. Even in the US suing is often times not worth it economically and getting someone to pay after a win is painful too if they don't just file bankruptcy. Escrow or upfront only is the best way to go.

This was a California company and contract, but your comment does apply to their situation with their client

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance. Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely. One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do…

> Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance. Sadly, while this is true, there are plenty of folks still doing freelance who have not learned this, and there always will be. It's just one of those lessons that quite a lot of people have to learn from experience, even after reading posts like this. The exact same reason why…

>>companies will continue to get away with taking advantage of freelance work.

Think of ¡all the exposure! doing this free labor for us will give you! /s

or:

I'll cook you dinner if you do this days of work for me /serious?!

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#84

When you walk into a shitshow like this, the first thing you do is secure your payments. Anyone who is in such bad shape like how OP described it means that they are desperate, and desperate people will do and say anything to get help. It is most likely going to not pay anyone so you need to make sure you're paid above and beyond anything else otherwise walk.

You forgot the middleground where there are thousands of laid off people who can do your exact job and undercut you etc. These founders hire/fire through hundreds of us, they don't give a shit. If you say 1 thing they don't like they go to the next.

That's not the middle ground. That's the other extreme, where people are desperate for work so they will say they can do anything in order to get work.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#85

That doesn’t really sound like “being ripped off,” as opposed to “betting on a lame horse.” The people behind this were irresponsible, childish, and exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They weren’t really hardline crooks. Crooks are probably a lot more organized. I have gotten myself invested with similar crowds. There’s usually a charismatic spokesperson, leading the chaos. They likely didn’t plan to rip him off…

I think you’re right and it’s fair to reframe this that way, in that in a certain sense, despite my naivety, I was the adult in the room and should have seen what they couldn’t. But then given what I’ve learned since I think I can say with some certainty that this particular group saw the writing on the wall and were willing to use the skilled labor and time of an endless army of cannon fodder to try to staunch the b…

I've seen similar, at a bigger scale.

When the wheels start coming off, morals are first over the side.

In some cases (think Theranos), it can go all the way into straight criminality. Most times, it just reaches the point where everything collapses, when the supports rust away.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#86

We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do: - Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner - Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply t…

Oh and another lesson! Ensuring that each deliverable invoice is small enough that it falls under the simplified claims procedure (in the UK it’s 10,000 pounds) greatly simplifies collection. It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent. You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anywa…

> simplified claims procedure

I believe this is what we call small claims court in the United States. The threshold varies by state, but it is a very effective way to deal with recalcitrant companies both large and small.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#87
Back in my younger days I found a bunch of liberals who were claiming to run a software company. They were really into the social justice BS.

After about a month of employment, I was told I was being rude to ask for payment. Apparently they neglected to tell me that they actually only pay their employees 60 to 70 days after they start.

Of course the first red flag was them doing the 1099 dance for slightly above minimum wage. I had been forced to do that before, but guess what. They paid us every single week.

Quiting without notice was one of the greatest feelings with these clowns. By this time they had started to ask me to literally work for free. "Unpaid training". They stopped scheduling me for paid hours anyway, so no notice needed.

Right after that I worked for some conservatives. They paid me early. My first year I got a large raise.

There were some awkward moments like the CEO telling me who to vote for. But for the most part it was awesome.

I still consider myself to be very liberal, but I don't want to work anywhere that does a lot of virtue signaling. Your beliefs don't make you a good person, your actions do.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#88
post #81

OP wasn't ripped off, OP just forgot to define their contract. Like, entirely. Nobody forced OP to work 11-14 hour days. Contracting 101 stipulates that you define your hours ahead of time. You come in, you provide your expertise, and you leave at the end of the day. Let the client's junior employees work long hours. Not your problem. OP brought their own equipment, which is totally fine but "who provides equipment"…

These types of situations are endemic to my industry, for better or worse. I wasn't intending to complain about the working conditions by way of making it seem as though any of those things were unusual — I was providing that context by way of saying I conducted myself as a professional does in these situations. I've been in this (immersive, interactive, creative tech) industry for 20 years and those conditions are absolutely expected onsite when commissioning, installing, or preparing for a live event. Refusing to work beyond say an 8-10 hour day would leave the project unfinished and we work on a 'show must go on basis'. With that said, doing this for 20+ days without a break is unusually grueling, even for this industry.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#89
post #76

There's not any incentives to pay you when they're in China and there's no legal recourse from the US. Even in the US suing is often times not worth it economically and getting someone to pay after a win is painful too if they don't just file bankruptcy. Escrow or upfront only is the best way to go.

The company was California-based, they were offering services in China. At least, that was my read. The contractor was also in California.

Honestly, this seems to be bad advice from their recovery services. Suing is 100% recommended here. There are plenty of lawyers that will work on a pro rata basis for account recovery in California. Sure, you lose a portion of your 35k; but you get more than you would have letting them get away with paying zero.

There's also laws in place to keep companies from "closing up shop" and opening in a new entity. It doesn't necessarily erase your debt (it can, but only in rare circumstances). And, even if they do get around it, it keeps them from pulling the same shenanigans going forward, in the state.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#90
post #17

> I missed the month of May with my 2-year-old kid. My wife cared for a 2-year-old alone. The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?

You need a job to sustain a family. From the post it seems like author accepted the sacrifice for the amount he was supposed to be paid.
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