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Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

science.org

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Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#81

Post by jarjoura »

netcan wrote: post #61

>somehow Neanderthals managed to survive across most of Eurasia for nearly 400,000 years, longer than modern humans have been on Earth. These narrative simplifications end up just being confusing. Neanderthals from 400kya are often classed as Heidelbergensis. These guys were less Neanderthal-ish and more similar to us... being closer to and less divergent from the sapiens-neanderthal LCA. Neanderthal-Denisovan diverg…

> Neanderthals from 400kya are often classed as Heidelbergensis.

Heidelbergensis is the last common anscestor of Neanderthals, Denisovans and us.

We were all around for just as long, 400kya+, and before that, it was Homo Erectus.

All of them, Erectus, Heidelbergensis, Neanderthals, Denisovans and Sapiens were walking around at the same time. There's plenty of fossil records we've uncovered that show that to be true.

It was only in the last 100k years or so that we remained and the other variants "died out".

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#82

Post by jarjoura »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #7

It's wild to think how long very human-like beings and modern humans existed before the technological revolution really took off. Hundreds of thousands of years of existing on the technological level of stone tools, spears, cloth made out of hides, and fire. Then at some unknown point probably in the last 100,000 years, the bow and arrow. Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlock…

Can't imagine having to live with anxiety of just staying alive. Constant diseases, infestations, starvation, animal attacks.

You would never feel like you have time to just, be. Instead you're focused on getting your next meal, and finding a place to sleep.

It only took a few ice-ages to force us to get smart about how we organize and then here we are.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#84

Post by Cthulhu_ »

lobf wrote: post #20
boxedemp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basque Country also has an interesting language which doesn't seem related to other European languages. Basque language (or Euskara). Seems as though it could have been an enclave of neanderthals who eventually integrated with humans.

This is a much-discussed topic. All we know of the Basque language is that it is pre-Indo-European. The last time I looked in to this, the consensus was that it was most likely a version of otherwise-extinct ancient Celtic. Now that doesn’t mean that the Basques don’t have a potentially outsized Neanderthal genetic influence, but the odds of their language being so ancient as to pre-exist modern humans entirely is un…

I'm just an armchair wikipedia browser, but it's an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Basque_language

This article talks about the Basque language from before contact with the Romans, 5-1 centuries BCE. It also references a "pre-proto-basque" language, that would have been the one before the Celtic invasion of Iberia (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberians).

The rabbit hole kind of ends there, as not much linguistic artifacts or history remain from BC unfortunately. But one can imagine the Basque society would live in relative isolation for a long time before that.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#85

Post by gobdovan »

sehansen wrote: post #73
davidkuennen wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just like that we just learned that parasites may have been good for us [1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8162934/

The fact that low-grade parasite-infections dampen autoimmune diseases isn't that big of a win. Presumably our immune system is as aggressive as it is in part due to the parasite-load our ancestors were exposed to.

We solved the parasite problem and at the same time changed the ecology we were accustomed to. The irony of dynamic systems.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#86

Post by actionfromafar »

jarjoura wrote: post #82
hax0ron3 wrote: post #7

It's wild to think how long very human-like beings and modern humans existed before the technological revolution really took off. Hundreds of thousands of years of existing on the technological level of stone tools, spears, cloth made out of hides, and fire. Then at some unknown point probably in the last 100,000 years, the bow and arrow. Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlock…

Can't imagine having to live with anxiety of just staying alive. Constant diseases, infestations, starvation, animal attacks. You would never feel like you have time to just, be. Instead you're focused on getting your next meal, and finding a place to sleep. It only took a few ice-ages to force us to get smart about how we organize and then here we are.

Welcome to Gaza I guess.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#87

Post by solids »

jarjoura wrote: post #82
hax0ron3 wrote: post #7

It's wild to think how long very human-like beings and modern humans existed before the technological revolution really took off. Hundreds of thousands of years of existing on the technological level of stone tools, spears, cloth made out of hides, and fire. Then at some unknown point probably in the last 100,000 years, the bow and arrow. Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlock…

Can't imagine having to live with anxiety of just staying alive. Constant diseases, infestations, starvation, animal attacks. You would never feel like you have time to just, be. Instead you're focused on getting your next meal, and finding a place to sleep. It only took a few ice-ages to force us to get smart about how we organize and then here we are.

Having one clear short term goal after another may sound to freedom for some people.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#88

Post by actionfromafar »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #28
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

That played a large role, but they were also pretty far behind Europe in military technology so I am almost certain they would have been conquered anyway. It would have just taken longer. I'm no expert in the matter, but from what I've read it seems to me that the Mesoamerican civilizations in 1492 were probably at about the military level that the Eurasian civilizations had already reached in the first millenium BC.

It’s impossible to tell. If it had taken decades or a century longer because their numbers were higher, they might have had time to start up their own production of technology.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#89

Post by actionfromafar »

t-3 wrote: post #58
ywvcbk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't invent it quickly enough i.e. they generally lagged behind Eurasian civilizations by several thousand years so by 1500 they were approximately still stuck in the bronze age or so.

American agriculture was very advanced for the time and the crops and ideas developed transformed food and agriculture throughout the rest of the world. What was lacking were beasts of burden and metallurgy and resistance to smallpox.

Isn’t there indications that even large parts of the Amazon is in actuality planted?

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#90

Post by avadodin »

riffraff wrote: post #33
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

In things like the battle of Cajamarca the Incan lost a battle against the Spanish with 8000 warriors against 150. All the 150 survived. Disease was important but there was a large technological and cultural gap too (e.g. the Incan didn't fight at night!).

> the Incan didn't fight at night!

To be fair to the Inca, I didn't expect the night–vision–equipped Spanish Inquisition, either.

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