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Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

entsoe.eu

81–90 of 119 posts

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#81
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It isn't a swiss cheese failure if it was hit by an out-of-design-spec event First of all, the design basis accident is a design choice by the developers of the plant and regulators. The decision process that produced that DBA was clearly faulty - the economic and social costs of the disaster so clearly have exceeded those of a building to a more serious DBA. > Again I'm going from memory with the numbers but doubl…

> The decision process that produced that DBA was clearly faulty - the economic and social costs of the disaster so clearly have exceeded those of a building to a more serious DBA. That isn't clear at all. We're effectively sampling from the entire globe and we've had 2-3x bad nuclear disasters since the 70s. Our safety standards appear to be overcautious given the relatively small amount of damage done vs ... pretty…

Fukushima was designed to be constructed on a hill 30-35 meters above the ocean, but someones decided would be cheaper to construct it at sea level in order to reduce costs in water pumping, others decided to approve this, and much latter, one decade before the disaster when was requested to reinforce the security measures within all the reactors at Japan, those in charge of Fukushima decided to ignore it, again, pushing for extensions year after year until it all blew up. Decades of bad decisions with a strong smell to corruption.

https://warp.da.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/3856371/naiic.go.jp...

https://warp.da.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/3856371/naiic.go.jp...

https://web.archive.org/web/20210314022059/https://carnegiee...

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#82
post #81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The decision process that produced that DBA was clearly faulty - the economic and social costs of the disaster so clearly have exceeded those of a building to a more serious DBA. That isn't clear at all. We're effectively sampling from the entire globe and we've had 2-3x bad nuclear disasters since the 70s. Our safety standards appear to be overcautious given the relatively small amount of damage done vs ... pretty…

Fukushima was designed to be constructed on a hill 30-35 meters above the ocean, but someones decided would be cheaper to construct it at sea level in order to reduce costs in water pumping, others decided to approve this, and much latter, one decade before the disaster when was requested to reinforce the security measures within all the reactors at Japan, those in charge of Fukushima decided to ignore it, again, pus…

I mean, ok. So say they build the plant 35m higher up, then get hit by a tsunami that is 36 meters higher [0] than the one that caused the Fukushima disaster? If we're going to start worrying about events outside the design spec we may as well talk about that one. If they're designing to tolerate an event, we can pretty reliably imagine a much worse event that will happen sooner or later and take the plant out. That is the nature of engineering. Eventually everything fails; time is generally against a design engineer.

Caveating that I'm not really sure it was even an out-of-design event, but if it was then it is case closed and the swiss cheese model is an inappropriate choice of model to understand the failure. If you hit a design with things it wasn't designed to handle then it may reasonably fail because of that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami homework for the interested, it is cool stuff. Japan has seen some quite large waves, 57 meters seems to be the record in recent history.

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#83
post #71
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why you think those are not a confluence of smaller events or that something outside the design spec isn’t one of those factors. By “small,” I don’t mean trivial. I mean an event that by itself wouldn’t necessarily result in disaster. Perhaps I should have said “smaller” rather than “small.” With the O-rings, the cold and the pressure to launch on that particular day all created the confluence. With Fuku…

If Fukushima get hit by a disaster that is outside the design spec then the engineering root cause of the failure is established. There isn't some detailed process needed to figure out how a design should tolerate out-of-design events. And there isn't a confluence of smaller events, it is a very cut and dry situation (well, unstable and wet situation I suppose). There was one event that caused the failure. An event o…

The design spect tsunami resistance is for getting away with just a couple days downtime plus what the grid concerns.

A much higher much rare case is what happened and which they didn't have a plan ready on hand.

Even if you treat the box as the special being they wre...

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#84
post #82
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fukushima was designed to be constructed on a hill 30-35 meters above the ocean, but someones decided would be cheaper to construct it at sea level in order to reduce costs in water pumping, others decided to approve this, and much latter, one decade before the disaster when was requested to reinforce the security measures within all the reactors at Japan, those in charge of Fukushima decided to ignore it, again, pus…

I mean, ok. So say they build the plant 35m higher up, then get hit by a tsunami that is 36 meters higher [0] than the one that caused the Fukushima disaster? If we're going to start worrying about events outside the design spec we may as well talk about that one. If they're designing to tolerate an event, we can pretty reliably imagine a much worse event that will happen sooner or later and take the plant out. That…

In Japan they have the "Tsunami Stones" [0] across the coast, memorials to remind future generations of the highest point the water reached.

It was negligent to construct a nuclear plant at sea level, it was just a plant waiting to be flooded, and for such case they had ten years to design protections after being requested to reinforce measures (along with the other Japanese plants), but I can imagine the ones that should put the money was not very collaborative (I even doubt if such responsible learnt the lesson).

[0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/century-old-warnin...

If it was a cheese model or not I do not enter (notice that parent of parent and me are different users), their negligence breaks all the possible logic we could apply without introducing the corruption's variable behind such decades of bad decisions.

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and then people accuse social media of making people paranoid... you are able to be paranoid on your own just fine

My theory is that social media simply increases the connectivity and reach (of the “rumour mill” or what have you) and thus it amplifies an existing social “failure mode”. (That and earlier mass media was heavily moderated and regulated, while things like Facebook or twitter/X are basically a free-for-all).

Facebook/etc aren't a free-for-all, they're much worse than that - they selectively provide a stream of news designed to drive "engagement", of which angry obsession is one type. Social media aren't "platforms", they're content distributors (despite the industry's own efforts to establish use of the term "platform", which sounds far more neutral).

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#86
post #37
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See, for instance, the space shuttle O-ring incident That wasn't really a result of an alignment of small weaknesses though. One of the reasons that whole thing was of particular interest was Feynman's withering appendix to the report where he pointed out that the management team wasn't listening to the engineering assessments of the safety of the venture and were making judgement calls like claiming that a compone…

In reality the "swiss cheese" holes for major accidents often turn out to be large holes that were thought to be small at the time. > [Fukushima] No small alignment of circumstances needed. The tsunami is what initiated the accident, but the consequences were so severe precisely because of decades of bad decisions, many of which would have been assumed to be minor decisions at the time they were made. E.g. - The desi…

There was a strong corporate cultural component to Fukushima as well. Tepco had spent decades telling the Japanese public that nuclear power was completely safe. A tall order in Japan obviously, but by and large it worked.

During the operation of Fukushima Daiichi, various studies had been done that recommended upgraded safety features like enlarging the seawall, moving the emergency generators above ground so they couldn't be flooded, etc.

In every case, management rejected the recommendations because:

1. They would cost money.

2. Upgrading safety would be tantamount to admitting the reactors were less than safe before, and we can't have that.

3. See 1.

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had that multiple times. As well as the closely related 'that can't possibly have ever worked' and sure enough it never did. Forensics in old codebases with modern tools is always fun.

> As well as the closely related 'that can't possibly have ever worked' and sure enough it never did. I had one of those, customer is adamant latest version broke some function, I check related code and it hasn't been touched for 7 years, and as written couldn't possibly work. I try and indeed, doesn't work. Yet customer persisted. Long story short, an unrelated bug in a different module caused the old, non-functioni…

By the way, a corollary I encountered, I think with one of the recent AWS meltdowns, is that a paradoxical consequence of designing for "reliability" is that it guarantees that when something does happen, it's going to be bad, because the reliability engineering has done a good job of masking all the smaller faults.

Which means 1. anything that gets through, almost by definition, is going to be bad enough to escape the safeguards, and 2. when things do get bad enough to escape the safeguards, it will likely expose the avalanche of things that were already in a failure state but were being mitigated

The takeaway, which I'm not really sure how to practically make use of, was that if a system isn't observably failing occasionally in small ways, one day it's going to instead fail in a big way

I don't think that's necessarily something rigorously proven but I do think of it sometimes in the face of some mess

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#88

Can’t read all of this since it’s 424 pages but i want to point out that Australia is beating Europe on grid connected storage. Not on a per capita basis. It’s beating all of Europe combined outright https://www.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-battery... We did have many many problems previously. The state of South Australia went out for a couple of weeks at one point in similar cascading failures. This does…

You need grid connected storage where you have (unpredictable) renewables. That doesn't negate the benefits of Nuclear baseload power. In an ideal mix, you need both, and also Gas for emergencies. One is not better than the other, they have different roles in a balanced grid.

Renewables are very predictable, they're just intermittent.

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#89
post #84
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, ok. So say they build the plant 35m higher up, then get hit by a tsunami that is 36 meters higher [0] than the one that caused the Fukushima disaster? If we're going to start worrying about events outside the design spec we may as well talk about that one. If they're designing to tolerate an event, we can pretty reliably imagine a much worse event that will happen sooner or later and take the plant out. That…

In Japan they have the "Tsunami Stones" [0] across the coast, memorials to remind future generations of the highest point the water reached. It was negligent to construct a nuclear plant at sea level, it was just a plant waiting to be flooded, and for such case they had ten years to design protections after being requested to reinforce measures (along with the other Japanese plants), but I can imagine the ones that s…

> It was negligent to construct a nuclear plant at sea level, it was just a plant waiting to be flooded,

So why did they build it there? It isn't a gentleman in a clown hat hitting himself on the head with a rubber mallet, they had a reason. These things are always trade-offs.

Maybe if they'd built it up on the hill there'd have been an earthquake, a landslide then the plant slides into the sea and gets waterlogged. I dunno. If we're talking about things without a clearly defined bounds of risk tolerance that is the sort of scenario that can be bought up. You're talking about negligence, but you aren't saying what tolerances this plant was built with, what you want it to be built to or what the trade-offs you want made are going to be. Once you start getting in to those details it becomes a lot less obvious that Fukushima is even a bad thing (probably is, the tech is pretty old and we wouldn't build a plant that way any more is my understanding). It isn't possible to just demand that engineers prevent all bad outcomes, reality is too messy. It isn't negligent if there are reasonable design constraints, then something outside the design considerations happens and causes a failure, is the theoretical point I'm bringing up. It is just bad luck.

The whole affair seems pretty responsible from where I sit a long way away. Fukushima is possibly the gentlest engineering disaster to ever enter the canon. It is much better than a major dam or bridge failure for example, and again assuming the event that caused the whole thing was unexpected not even evidence of bad management. Most engineering failures involve a chain of horrific choices the leave the reader with tears in their eyes, not just a fairly mild "well we were hit with a wild tsunami and doubled the nominal price tag of the cleanup with no obvious loss of life or limb". And bear in mind we're scouring the world for the worst nuclear disaster in the 21st century.

And besides, they did build it above sea level.

Re: Entso-E final report on Iberian 2025 blackout

#90
post #82
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fukushima was designed to be constructed on a hill 30-35 meters above the ocean, but someones decided would be cheaper to construct it at sea level in order to reduce costs in water pumping, others decided to approve this, and much latter, one decade before the disaster when was requested to reinforce the security measures within all the reactors at Japan, those in charge of Fukushima decided to ignore it, again, pus…

I mean, ok. So say they build the plant 35m higher up, then get hit by a tsunami that is 36 meters higher [0] than the one that caused the Fukushima disaster? If we're going to start worrying about events outside the design spec we may as well talk about that one. If they're designing to tolerate an event, we can pretty reliably imagine a much worse event that will happen sooner or later and take the plant out. That…

> Caveating that I'm not really sure it was even an out-of-design event but if it was then it is case closed and the swiss cheese model is an inappropriate choice of model to understand the failure.

This is not how safe systems are designed and operated. Safety is not a one-time item, it is a process. All safety-critical systems receive attention throughout their operating lives to identify and mitigate potential safety risks. Throughout history, many safety-critical systems have received significant changes during their operating lives as a result of newly-discovered threats or recognition that threats identified during the initial design were not adequately addressed. Many (if not most) commercial aircraft have required significant modifications to address problems that were not understood at the time they were initially built and certified. Likewise, nuclear power plants in many countries have received major modifications over the years to address potential safety issues that were not understood or properly modeled at the time of their design. Sometimes, this process determines that there is no safe way to continue operation - usually that there is no economically viable way to mitigate the potential failure mode - and the system is simply shut down. This has happened to a few aircraft over the years, as well as several nuclear power plants (in many cases justified, in others not so much).

Fukushima existed in just such a system, and that the disaster occurred was the result of failures throughout the system, not a one-off failure at the design stage.

> I mean, ok. So say they build the plant 35m higher up, then get hit by a tsunami that is 36 meters higher [0] than the one that caused the Fukushima disaster? If we're going to start worrying about events outside the design spec we may as well talk about that one. If they're designing to tolerate an event, we can pretty reliably imagine a much worse event that will happen sooner or later and take the plant out. That is the nature of engineering.

I think you are missing the point. Obviously it is possible that a tsunami higher than any possible design threshold could occur (it is, after all, possible that an asteroid will strike in the pacific and kick up a wave of debris that wipes everything off the home islands). However, the tsunami that struct Fukushima Daiichi was no higher than a number of tsunamis that were recorded in Japan within the last century. The choice of DBA tsunami height was clearly an underestimate, and underestimates were identified for Fukushima and other plants prior to the accident but not acted upon. This was not a cases of "a bigger wave is always possible", it was a case where the design, operation, and supervision were wrong, and known (by some) to be so prior to the accident.

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