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Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#81

Post by mistercow »

jawns wrote: post #15

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the cause of treating dolphins as if they had human rights if we first agreed to treat all humans as if they had human rights.

I find this line of thought extremely tedious. We have never improved as a society by lining up all of our concerns in a nicely organized list by priority, and then tackling everything on the agenda sequentially.

I am reminded of people who scoff at giving money to bums on the grounds that it is an inefficient form of charity. In most cases, here is what happens:

1. Bum asks X for spare change.

2. X thinks "That's not an efficient way to give. I would be better off donating the couple bucks in my pocket to a charity that I have researched carefully."

3. "Sorry I don't have anything on me."

4. X goes and spends the money on a cup of coffee and completely forgets about the incident.

Now, obviously that's not what always happens. But it's what usually happens, and it's ridiculous. I've had people tell me that instead of giving money to homeless people, I should go buy fast food and hand it out. Of course, when asked if they have ever done this themselves, the answer is invariably "no". It's so easy to do nothing instead of something if you can convince yourself that the something is not the absolute ideal.

Finally, affording dolphins human rights is not in conflict with affording humans human rights. We will not delay the process of preventing human rights abuses by also preventing the abuse of dolphins. To ask the question "How can we think about giving dolphins basic rights when so many humans don't have basic rights?" may feel righteous, but it certainly doesn't actually do anything to help either cause. All it does is to reassure yourself that you don't need to worry about the dolphin situation.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#82

Post by sleepydog »

TomGullen wrote: post #21

> It is based on years of research that has shown dolphins and whales have large, complex brains and a human-like level of self-awareness How did they conclude dolphins and whales are self-aware comparatively to humans? That seems like quite a large claim to make and the argument significantly hinges on this. I wasn't aware of any scientific method to prove self awareness.

Usually in this context, "self-aware" is usually used to indicate the ability to recognize one's own image, voice, smell, etc. The research referred to is mostly several experiments of showing dolphins to a mirror and determining that they can recognize a) That they are looking at a reflection, not a window, and b) They are able to distinguish themselves from other dolphins.

This only applies to one (quite narrow and literal) definition of self-awareness, mind you, but it's something you only see in apes and dolphins.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#83

Post by jlgreco »

crusso wrote: post #79
jlgreco wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully functioning in society seems to be setting the bar too high; we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. Now, will dolphins ever communicate their desire to achieve greater legal consideration? Not unless we put some more effort into researching communication with dolphins (and even then, I strongly suspect not). Not really a problem though I think.

we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. You miss my point. It's not a requirement for any individual, but it IS a requirement for members of a species in general. Most humans are functioning members of society. The ones that aren't, whether it's temporary or permanent are protected implicitly and explicitly through social contract and the laws we've created. No dol…

>"but it IS a requirement for members of a species in general."

Is it? Considering we have never before in recorded history extended such consideration to another species, it seems unlikely that there are existing standards we can look to.

There are many things you can observe "most" humans doing, but that does not mean those things are all prerequisites for special legal and ethical consideration.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#84

Post by crusso »

mistercow wrote: post #69
crusso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short of new mutations, no dolphin has ever, is, or will ever be a fully functioning member of society. Rules of thumb regarding treatment of immature or disabled humans is not at all appropriate.

>a fully functioning member of society What does that even mean?

Not sure where to start. How about if you imagine that a member of Society defined here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

Participates in one.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#85

Post by belorn »

crusso wrote: post #41
swombat wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their view is not that intelligence makes your life more worthwhile, but that there is a threshold of species intelligence which makes that species "persons". Note the focus on a species, rather than individuals.

When cetaceans let us know that they will mutually honor some sort of Interspecies Protective Treaty, I will be the first in line to support the move that they should have similar protections to people. Until then, I don't want to see such beautiful intelligent creatures harmed -- but murder/manslaughter charges would be inappropriate if one were inadvertently killed. The current animal protection/endangered species…

There is a implied statement that cetaceans would somehow need to learn English to receive similar protections as people.

This is of course a really bad requirement. A lot of people in the world do not know English, and would thus be unable to let anyone know that they will mutually honor some sort of Interspecies Protective Treaty. Mostly, they would be unable to read any such treaty, or reply with the word "yes".

First create a requirement that all human being will pass. Then see if cetaceans do pass it.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#86

Post by sleepydog »

jlgreco wrote: post #76
crusso wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a species, humans agree to basic rules of conduct that form an implied Social Contract. Can any non-human species do that?

Certainly a potential example from the past could perhaps be found in the social relations humans had with our close relatives. The relationships between Neanderthal and Cro-Magon is contested and ultimately largely unknown, however it seems likely there was some recognition of each other involved as something other than mere beasts.

I thought the Cro-Magnons hunted down and ultimately exterminated the Neanderthals. Have there been any discoveries about their interaction?

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#87

Post by mistercow »

crusso wrote: post #79
jlgreco wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully functioning in society seems to be setting the bar too high; we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. Now, will dolphins ever communicate their desire to achieve greater legal consideration? Not unless we put some more effort into researching communication with dolphins (and even then, I strongly suspect not). Not really a problem though I think.

we don't consider that a prerequisite for rights in humans by any reasonable interpretation. You miss my point. It's not a requirement for any individual, but it IS a requirement for members of a species in general. Most humans are functioning members of society. The ones that aren't, whether it's temporary or permanent are protected implicitly and explicitly through social contract and the laws we've created. No dol…

>It's not a requirement for any individual, but it IS a requirement for members of a species in general.

How can you possibly make that sort of generalization when there is only one species that is commonly accepted as having rights?

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#88

Post by monsterix »

lumberjack wrote: post #63
monsterix wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While theorizing tests of animal psyche and self-awareness might be helpful to the purpose, but what we humans forget is the preciseness of agent Smith's evaluation of us: "I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with th…

>There is no chance any animal/fish is going to survive the brunt of us 9 billion in next fifty years. I won't be so sure considering that unlike a Virus we are aware of the damage we are causing and are already trying to mitigate it.

For one picture I see in future is us inhabiting an exo-planet; and Elon Musk et al showing us that direction and so on...

In this dynamic, we as a virus race will choose the easiest way out even at the cost of all the species of this planet. 9 billion of us will, mark my words, only kill, eat or ridicule whatever that is left of the ecosystem today.

I am actually afraid about cannibalism picking up too in distant hungry countries which are already off balance today. It's pretty grim.

Dolphins will continue to be enslaved, slaughtered or even ridiculed for any "equal treatment" justified exactly the way this thread shows. Ground reality will of course be worse.

To which I do agree with your statement that "we are aware" and that there is an exit for us even though some will definitely try to mitigate, protect and stay behind.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#89

Post by jlgreco »

sleepydog wrote: post #86
jlgreco wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly a potential example from the past could perhaps be found in the social relations humans had with our close relatives. The relationships between Neanderthal and Cro-Magon is contested and ultimately largely unknown, however it seems likely there was some recognition of each other involved as something other than mere beasts.

I thought the Cro-Magnons hunted down and ultimately exterminated the Neanderthals. Have there been any discoveries about their interaction?

There is some evidence of interbreeding, but more importantly, there is some evidence of cultural exchange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon#Neanderthals

All if this tends to be very wishy-washy.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#90

Post by GotAnyMegadeth »

stephengillie wrote: post #13
swalberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN has said that broadband Internet is a basic human right. This is starting to get difficult.

Internet access is a basic human right because it vastly improves the quality of human life. Would internet access be a basic dolphin right? They didn't build it...

Neither did I...
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