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WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

seattletimes.com

81–90 of 193 posts

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#81
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current governor is proposing cutting property taxes in ~half by eliminating the school district portion and instead funding schools directly via the state's budget surplus. Remains to be seen, as the next legislative session isn't until 2027.

I mean, most property developers are playing shell games to avoid the requirement of having to build school districts anyway in Texas from my experience living there. Build small developments up to just short of the line where it's required, then continue development as a different legal fiction with what turns out to be ultimately the same beneficent owners. Texas education system leaves much to be desired.

I'm not familiar with that specific example, but I do know that independent players in any economic system will follow the incentives.

Expecting companies, people etc to do the "right thing" when it's financially disincentivized usually doesn't work out.

Same will happen in regards to all these new taxes reinforcing existing population migration trends.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#82

As someone who lives in WA, I despise how bad any state government run program here is. Literally it took me 3 months to get a SSN and I couldn’t get hold of anyone. Also on top of this tax, they have this care tax which also taxes 1% of your income for “long term care”. I would love to pay my taxes if I had seen reasonable outcome. So far all I see is a corrupt state government with no accountability and transparenc…

> Also isn’t this illegal? I thought the state constitution says it is illegal. The state constitution treats income as property, and states that property taxes must be uniform. So the bill is actually a state-wide, uniform 9.9% income tax but with the first million dollars exempt. It is expected to be challenged almost immediately in probably a long court battle so we will see what the arguments are. I'm in support…

Do you have anything specific you want the money spent on?

Or is it just a punish the rich type of support?

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#83

When I was a new grad moving to the US and deciding where to live and work, the biggest draw of Seattle was its lack of income tax. Of course this particular $1 million threshold wouldn't apply to me until I'm very late in my career, or have a lucky year, or get married to a high-income person (the $1 million threshold applies to married couples, not just individuals) but Seattle loses a lot of its appeal if it's not…

> The tax would apply only on the amount of income above the $1 million threshold, so a person making $1.5 million, for example, would be taxed on the final $500,000. It would apply to an estimated 20,000 to 30,000 households in the state, with collections beginning in 2029 on the previous year’s income. It's a sliding scale tax. Someone making a million will barely feel it. Someone making 50 million will feel it a l…

Nobody is making $50M a year in W2 income. Maybe a couple pro athletes? But if you're making $50M a year it's all stock and that doesn't fall under this, and once you have enough of it there are ways to actually realize it as income and never pay taxes on it.

This is not about the money at all, it's about getting an income tax on the books. In a year or two they'll lower the limit a few hundred grand. They're start removing exemptions, they'll add more brackets, and before you know it Washington will have California's tax structure and the people who live there will not be any better for it. But the government will be bigger, and the people will be poorer.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#84
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tax would apply only on the amount of income above the $1 million threshold, so a person making $1.5 million, for example, would be taxed on the final $500,000. It would apply to an estimated 20,000 to 30,000 households in the state, with collections beginning in 2029 on the previous year’s income. It's a sliding scale tax. Someone making a million will barely feel it. Someone making 50 million will feel it a l…

> Someone making a million will barely feel it. Easy for you to say. > Objectively, anyone making $50 million should feel it a lot and be taxed heavily. How is that objectively true? Why should they?

Well the tax is on income over $1M so yes someone making $1M will pay nothing. Technically that's easy for anyone to say, assuming they actually read the article at least.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can in good conscious be opposed to new taxes. This tax is being introduced in a way that only affects the most privileged portion of the population but that's how the Federal income tax was introduced many years ago too. People who oppose the tax are looking forward to a future where the tax burden in Washington might be as oppressive as it is in California or New York.

States with massive, growing populations? Must not be as oppressive as stated.

Let's not quibble over the population growth rates of these states which provide welfare to everyone. Instead, let's talk about te tax base which provides this welfare and you'll notice that tax base does not grow nearly as fast and might in fact be shrinking - actual reliable numbers are hard to come by. How many of the newcomers to these states will end up being net providers to the tax base and how many will end up being net consumers? If you provide more benefits, more people will come. If you raise the net tax rates to provide those benefits to a growing number of consumers more net payers will leave. The total population may remain the same or may even grow but a larger fraction of that total population will never become net providers, remaining net consumers. What is the end game here? This is a question which has already been answered in many European countries with similarly structured social benefit systems. There the end game is called 'austerity measures', the reduction of state services to keep the state from getting even deeper in debt.

A cynical take on this situation is that the current crop of politicos in these states launch these ever-increasing benefit systems in the knowledge that this attracts voters from a few segments of the population as well as 'future voters' who will move to these places because they promise to provide them with (more) benefits than their current domiciles. Once the costs of the whole system become too high the system will no longer be tenable but the current crop of politicos will by that time have moved on to greener pastures, probably golf courses in some nice shielded and guarded areas. The 'other party' will end up winning the elections after having been out of power for a long time but this will end up being a Pyrrhic victory since they inherit a state on the verge of financial collapse. OK, they say, "we need to fix this mess and the only way to achieve that is to cut spending because we can not raise taxes above where they've been raised by our predecessors" - in fact this promise was one of the factors which made them win the elections. They do just that, lower benefits, lower some taxes - but not that much because they do need money to pay off all those debts and all the running contracts entered by their predecessors - and they manage to pull the state away from the brink of financial ruin.

At the next election round the party which put in place all those benefit programs portrays the current incumbents as "inhumane penny-pushers who only want to appease the rich" with organised - and paid - protests by all the right groups, long media campaigns about the threat of *-ism and *-phobia, the works. The current incumbents try to defend their record stating that they're just cleaning up the mess left by the previous leadership who are financially irresponsible spendthrifts but that message is not nearly as emotionally appealing as the video clips of poor single mothers who now have less to feed their poor children, about the cancelled school trips because the state no longer had the funds to pay for them.

The elections are won by the party which put in place the programs which nearly bankrupted the state, the new leadership undoes part of what the previous leadership did to save the state from financial ruin and as a result the process is set to repeat in a few years. Enough years at least to make sure they get to retire to greener pastures, probably golf courses in nice shielded and guarded neighbourhoods. They don't have to worry about such silly things as financial responsibility, they know they can get the other side to clean up the mess and they also know they'll be able to use the measures the others need to take to clean up the mess to launch a campaign against them which is nearly sure to regain them the leadership in one or two election cycles.

As the label on the shampoo bottle says: rinse, repeat.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#86
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States with massive, growing populations? Must not be as oppressive as stated.

Both California and New York have shrinking populations according to Wikipedia. And even if the estimates are wrong and they do have growing populations you still need to consider the fact that the Southern states are growing much faster. Federal power is shifting south. If you like the politics of New York and California that's a long-term problem that needs to be resolved.

California has a "Neutral Decrease" in population and New York has a "Neutral Increase" according to Wikipedia. I'm gonna go with the 5 year trendline, which is up.

> And even if the estimates are wrong

Nice, covering all your bases.

> Southern states are growing much faster

Yeah, smaller states grow faster than larger ones.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#87

I grew up in WA and as much as I enjoyed the lack of income tax, it's factual that until recently they held the title of #1 most regressive state tax system nationwide (recently bumped to #2 by FL). Income taxes are much better distributed among income brackets than consumption taxes are. I grew up just over the river from Portland, where there is no state sales tax; we got to enjoy the best of both worlds by crossin…

[deleted]

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#88
post #49
post #3

I don't understand how anyone in good conscience can vote against this tax. As a reminder, this tax does not affect income under a million US dollars. From the article, if you earn a dollar over a million dollars, you owe 9.9% so you need to pay a dime in income tax.

> I don't understand how anyone in good conscience can vote against this tax Then you have intellectual blinders on. There’s good reasons to have broad based taxes instead of singling out rich people. In Sweden, for example, the top tax bracket kicks in at 1.5x the median income. In Germany, the second highest 42% bracket kicks in around 70,000 euros and the top 45% bracket kicks in at 277,000 euros. None of the coun…

Those are numbers. They are not reasons. Modern social democracies are just a capitalist compromise. They are still capitalist dominated. Hence why these Euro social democracies have rich people.

Bourgeoisie blinders are on.

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#89
post #12
post #3

I don't understand how anyone in good conscience can vote against this tax. As a reminder, this tax does not affect income under a million US dollars. From the article, if you earn a dollar over a million dollars, you owe 9.9% so you need to pay a dime in income tax.

The first set of US federal tax rates when it was allowed by the 16th amendment with adjustments for inflation on the the right: Orig Income Rate Adj Income (2025 Dollars) Up to $20,000 1% Up to $600,000 $20,000 to $50,000 2% $600,000 to $1,500,000 $50,000 to $75,000 3% $1,500,000 to $2,250,000 $75,000 to $100,000 4% $2,250,000 to $3,000,000 Over $100,000 5% Over $3,000,000 The point being that once you allow the tax…

This is important context, and people forget that "taxation without representation," which started a war, was about a tax of about 1.5%.

Why is it when people are against a tax they typically talk about it in terms of historical context, unintended consequences, interstate migration, while people in favor of the tax almost exclusively appeal to emotional blackmail statements like "paying your fair share" (when something like 40% of the country pays no federal income tax whatsoever) or "good conscience" or assume anyone with any money got it through borderline illegal activities?

Re: WA income tax clears House after 24-hour debate

#90
post #45

Progressive taxation is the most efficient and fair system of taxation. America was it's most prosperous when the top federal income tax topped 90%, 1944-1963. Modern wealth consolidation makes this structure even more logical.

Everyone except the people uncritically repeating this political talking point agrees that a 90% marginal rate is very far on the right side of the Laffner curve.

The point of a 90% marginal rate isn't to increase tax revenue, it's to discourage high incomes that are economically and socially harmful. If you don't believe that's a problem then policies to address it won't seem logical.
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