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Ad-tech is fascist tech

pluralistic.net

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Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@ratrace [dead]: "My side" is my side because I perceive this movement as fascist, or at least close enough to oppose it on that grounds. I was much happier both sidesing when digital authoritarianism was centered around theoretically-voluntary digital services, and both the red and blue political teams were pushing bureaucratic authoritarianism. In my estimation, the red team has switched to autocratic authoritarian…

" Exalts the Nation and Often Race Above the Individual Donald Trump claims immigrants are “poisoning the blood of our nation,” a turn of phrase used by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf... Associated with a Centralized Autocratic Government Headed by a Dictatorial Leader This one is almost too easy: Trump says, “‘You’re not going to be a dictator are you?’ I said ‘No, no, no, other than day one.”... Severe Economic and Soc…

I read this when it was published (or perhaps partway and then it got lost in the tab forest). Thank you, because it was worth reading again for me, and lays out reasonable straightforward arguments for anyone just stumbling upon it for the first time.

But to be clear, what was I asking these interlocutors for was their definitions of fascism that back up the argument that trumpism is not fascism. So far the only answer I have gotten is "There is no definition of fascism that has meaning anymore" which is obviously nonsensical in the context of both Deveraux's and Doctorow's posts using the term productively.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#82
post #74
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean in the sense that if there's a morally distasteful business choice, but corporate officers pursue it, then are sued, a solid defense is claiming fiduciary duty. To wit, they thought it would make the company money.

Assuming fiduciary duty didn’t exist, what would the claim be in the lawsuit about morally distasteful business choices? Generally I’m not aware of any civil claim that would let shareholders sue over bad morals.

Modern shareholder law is definitely a strange business. People have successfully brought suits for a variety of bad-but-not-illegal causes. There were a lot of lawsuits about sexual harassment and climate change, I believe the theory being that “bad thing will make the stock go down, and the company didn’t disclose that they might do the bad thing”. Then more recently a lawsuit against target proceeded (I don’t see whether it’s completed yet) despite target having disclosed the risk (in this case of their DEI activity).

The claim in the suit is notably that the company failed to disclose the behavior, not that they did the behavior (Target notwithstanding), which mostly agrees with your line of questioning.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#83
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fascism, at least as the Nazi's defined and implemented it, is the belief that a socialist economy will work when the people have a similar genetic likeness. Wrong. You can read Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism" to have a more informed view.

I was going to share that myself. It's available from its original publisher the New York Review of Books : https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ > If paywalled, also at The Anarchist Library: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci... >. Robert O. Paxton's The Anatomy of Facism explores the concept in more detail, at book length. Those looking for a specific definition might pr…

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the latter book.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#84
post #82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming fiduciary duty didn’t exist, what would the claim be in the lawsuit about morally distasteful business choices? Generally I’m not aware of any civil claim that would let shareholders sue over bad morals.

Modern shareholder law is definitely a strange business. People have successfully brought suits for a variety of bad-but-not-illegal causes. There were a lot of lawsuits about sexual harassment and climate change, I believe the theory being that “bad thing will make the stock go down, and the company didn’t disclose that they might do the bad thing”. Then more recently a lawsuit against target proceeded (I don’t see…

Ok, but "Everything is securities fraud" (pace Matt Levine) isn't really what we're talking about here. E.I.S.F. cuts against the Chicago School "shareholder value" thing as often as not.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#85

HN has ads (job ads for YC companies). When I see people post these deranged takes about ads on HN, I always ask myself: Do they not notice this--a common criticism of ads is that they blend too much into the real content, and this is nowhere more true then on HN--or do words just not mean anything to them, do they just mindlessly repeat memes rather then thinking about what these ideas mean for their own life? Is a…

Ads aren’t inherently fascist but the modern implementation of ads put forth by companies like meta and google are. Having terms that allow companies to spy on your daily routine and habits in order to sell that info to companies that would then push their products to you is dystopian and fascist. This is not a simple billboard. The mechanism that ad companies use infringes upon our basic rights for privacy with manufactured consent.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#86
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Exalts the Nation and Often Race Above the Individual Donald Trump claims immigrants are “poisoning the blood of our nation,” a turn of phrase used by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf... Associated with a Centralized Autocratic Government Headed by a Dictatorial Leader This one is almost too easy: Trump says, “‘You’re not going to be a dictator are you?’ I said ‘No, no, no, other than day one.”... Severe Economic and Soc…

I read this when it was published (or perhaps partway and then it got lost in the tab forest). Thank you, because it was worth reading again for me, and lays out reasonable straightforward arguments for anyone just stumbling upon it for the first time. But to be clear, what was I asking these interlocutors for was their definitions of fascism that back up the argument that trumpism is not fascism. So far the only ans…

I apologise. Reading-comprehension.exe has failed 100% on my side. Thank you for pointing that out.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this when it was published (or perhaps partway and then it got lost in the tab forest). Thank you, because it was worth reading again for me, and lays out reasonable straightforward arguments for anyone just stumbling upon it for the first time. But to be clear, what was I asking these interlocutors for was their definitions of fascism that back up the argument that trumpism is not fascism. So far the only ans…

I apologise. Reading-comprehension.exe has failed 100% on my side. Thank you for pointing that out.

It probably didn't help that I replied to myself to respond to a dead comment! "We're all in this together, kid"

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Word use is important. We have allowed thumos (and epithumia ) to rule over nous . It has become acceptable to misuse words, like "fascist" or "communist" in political contexts, to the detriment of rational and fruitful discourse. Often a false equivalence is drawn between denying something is "fascist" or "communist" and denying something is bad. This is false. Something can be bad without being fascist or communist…

Word use is important. Please explain how the trumpist movement significantly differs from most points of Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism . Because in my estimation, the word is entirely appropriate for what we're facing and people are shouting it down because they don't like the uncomfortable truth. I'm open to changing my mind, especially if there is a better term that more accurately describes what we're facing. Because…

The burden of proof is on those making the claim that it is fascist (or communist, which is the Right's analoguous lazy epithet).

Citing Eco on this matter as an authoritative source is inappropriate, because that essay is a personal reflection, not a product of scholarly research. I, too, can reach for my personal family experience living under both fascist and communist regimes during the 20th century, and frankly, this ain't it, at least not yet. You're free to cite relevant passages here, of course. I would consider a better source.

And I agree that the MAGA/Trump style is on the whole a bad one (just as I think its Leftist counterpart is equally flawed in its own way; there's more overlap between them than intellectually superficial partisan-minded people think). There are tyrannical elements and impulses woven into these movements, yes. But it is important to realize that these are, in fact, the result of the procession of liberalism, not some repudiation or aberration of it. They are the way in which we can witness the self-immolation of liberalism as its internal contradictions, tensions, and weaknesses unfold in history. In other words, while liberalism flatters itself as the way to ever-greater freedom, its logic leads elsewhere.

Of course, scapegoating the other (party) is comforting, because it allows us to convince ourselves of our own purity, and that all we need to preserve that purity is the elimination of this pesky other. But the uncomfortable truth that is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore is that the defect is deep, in the very cloth of liberalism itself. We may think that all we need is to want a liberal order for there to be one, but that's not how things work. Societies aren't static. Ideas stand behind our wants, and if the ideas are misguided, then the force of their errors will play out, eventually.

Re: Ad-tech is fascist tech

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Word use is important. Please explain how the trumpist movement significantly differs from most points of Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism . Because in my estimation, the word is entirely appropriate for what we're facing and people are shouting it down because they don't like the uncomfortable truth. I'm open to changing my mind, especially if there is a better term that more accurately describes what we're facing. Because…

The burden of proof is on those making the claim that it is fascist (or communist, which is the Right's analoguous lazy epithet). Citing Eco on this matter as an authoritative source is inappropriate, because that essay is a personal reflection, not a product of scholarly research. I, too, can reach for my personal family experience living under both fascist and communist regimes during the 20th century, and frankly,…

> just as I think its Leftist counterpart is equally flawed in its own way; there's more overlap between them than intellectually superficial partisan-minded people think

I'll give you that, and hopefully you can see that there is some common ground to be had.

What I see as the chief difference is that the populism hasn't take over the entire Democratic party, but rather is more confined to small vocal contingents (identity politics, eat the rich, etc). Or maybe it's more accurate to say that said populism is being prevented from taking over the Democratic party by the business interests that run the Democratic party, whereas in the Republican party the populism is compatible with the desired policies of the party's sponsors and is therefore embraced as a motivating force.

> it is important to realize that these are, in fact, the result of the procession of liberalism, not some repudiation or aberration of it. They are the way in which we can witness the self-immolation of liberalism as its internal contradictions, tensions, and weaknesses unfold in history. In other words, while liberalism flatters itself as the way to ever-greater freedom, its logic leads elsewhere.

I'm willing to entertain this, but you're going to have to lay out arguments for the precise mechanics rather than merely just asserting it. I can certainly fill in my own meanings for what you've said (eg the many terms used to criticize "liberals" like "identity politics" and "cancel culture" apply equally or even harder to the current Republican party). But I'm not going to make your argument for you!

Furthermore I'd point out that even if we're running aground because liberalism is running out of steam, this does not mean that the direction some people choose to respond in is attributable to liberalism.

> I, too, can reach for my personal family experience living under both fascist and communist regimes during the 20th century, and frankly, this ain't it, at least not yet

Would you please elaborate on what you mean specifically? Even though subjective through the eyes of your family, this would seem to lend itself to being somewhat objective criteria we could at least discuss.

I do have to ask though, about your hedging of "not yet". Do you not consider Hitler pre-Reichstag-fire as a fascist? If it walks like a baby duck, and quacks like a baby duck, does it not make sense to call it a duck?

As far as the burden of making the case, many people have spent more time than a message board comment making the case. For example here is an essay linked in a different reply: https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-... . The second part is based on Eco (failing your standards), but the first part is not. I'd say the case has been made enough to put some burden of proof on people summarily rejecting the use of the word.

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