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Elite Overproduction

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Re: Elite Overproduction

#81

Post by algo314 »

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

What you're saying is also similar to what Marx says about ideology that ruling sensibilities align with the interest of the bourgeoisie rather than proletariat. Same is true for geo-politics a man killed in a developed nation is somewhat exceptional to man killed in the "other" countries.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#82

Post by aleph_minus_one »

relaxing wrote: post #74
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universities were just elite finishing schools. Quite some time ago, I read the claim on HN that in the USA, elite universities rather serve the purpose that - "rich/elite" kids, and - highly smart and ambitious kids get mixed together so that when they finish university, these groups become (mostly) indistinguishable. The reason why this a central purpose of elite universities is that these two groups need each ot…

I hope you’ve learned a valuable lesson about unsubstantiated claims on HN.

I don't live in the USA, so I cannot judge such claims.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#83

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ftmootnomoat wrote: post #79
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with educated youth who understand the game is that if there’s no room for them to join the ruling class they become very angry. My experience/observation is that only few (university-)educated people really do understand the game. Only a subset of them actually make serious attempts to understand the rules of the game, and of those, most get to believe in often very dangerous falsehoods about what the…

The rules are simple and ancient: noble blood breeds nobles; common blood breeds commoners. What’s sophisticated are the layers of ideology and falsehood that made people believe that aristocracy was dead.

> The rules are simple and ancient: noble blood breeds nobles; common blood breeds commoners.

This does not describe the current situation: even if we just consider net worth, there are at least 2-3 rather separated kinds of elites:

- the "aristocracy": what you name "noble blood"

- "old money": there is some partial overlap to "aristocracy", but not the same; for example think of family with a long pedigree, but not necessarily of aristocratic origin, think of family empires that have a standing in some industries over multiple generations.

- "new money": people who got rich in particular by building some internet company. Their values and attitudes are quite different from "old money".

These are three quite different groups of people. So, it's much more complicated than "noble blood breeds nobles; common blood breeds commoners".

--

And this is just the "already net worth rich".

For example there exist groups of intelligent people who are highly ambitious, but aren't given a chance, so they look for allies, and sometimes they succeed.

In some sense the classical hacker scene can be considered as an example. Some of them actually got rich by founding some internet startup.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#84

Post by csa »

ftmootnomoat wrote: post #79
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with educated youth who understand the game is that if there’s no room for them to join the ruling class they become very angry. My experience/observation is that only few (university-)educated people really do understand the game. Only a subset of them actually make serious attempts to understand the rules of the game, and of those, most get to believe in often very dangerous falsehoods about what the…

The rules are simple and ancient: noble blood breeds nobles; common blood breeds commoners. What’s sophisticated are the layers of ideology and falsehood that made people believe that aristocracy was dead.

> The rules are simple and ancient: noble blood breeds nobles; common blood breeds commoners.

This is a great narrative for folks who want to be fatalistic.

From my view:

- Much of what you call “nobles” and “commoners” are more about values than blood. Yes, “noble” values are difficult to develop if you’re not born in that class. That said, these values are easier to learn and develop today for a wider group of people than has ever been true in the past.

- Some people think the “noble” side is all rainbows and unicorns. The noble class is shedding its weak non-stop. It may take a generation or two before a branch of a noble family becomes common, but it happens often, and it’s a source of great consternation to that branch when it does.

> What’s sophisticated are the layers of ideology and falsehood that made people believe that aristocracy was dead.

Did anyone actually think the aristocracy was dead?

The relative power of the aristocracy dipped a bit mid-20th century, but what they may have temporarily lost in economic power was gained in social and political power.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#85

Post by GerryAdamsSF »

jmyeet wrote: post #50
TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

There's a double-whammy here of the Myth of Meritocracy [1] under capitalism and Prosperity Gospel [2] under Protestantism. After the Civil War we compensated slave owners . After the GFC we bailed out the banks. The government giving money to poor people is somehow a moral hazard yet the wealthy not only expect government handouts, they demand them. Many in tech don't seem to realize that after 2 centuries of automa…

Revolution is no longer possible in the age of AI drones and Tiktok propaganda. The collapse of global society is much more likely than revolution.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#86

Post by betaby »

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

> But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose.

If the programmers fall into the "educated professional class", then no, not in Canada. I personally know people with engineering/science degrees who became "warehouse sorters", baristas, metal workers, parcel deliverers, cooks in cafeteria. Some of them eventually found programming jobs again, others are still employed in blue collar/service jobs after 3+ years.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#87

Post by readthenotes1 »

jmyeet wrote: post #50
TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

There's a double-whammy here of the Myth of Meritocracy [1] under capitalism and Prosperity Gospel [2] under Protestantism. After the Civil War we compensated slave owners . After the GFC we bailed out the banks. The government giving money to poor people is somehow a moral hazard yet the wealthy not only expect government handouts, they demand them. Many in tech don't seem to realize that after 2 centuries of automa…

"compensated slave owners"

Only in the district of Columbia. Such a distortion influenced me not to read the rest of your message

Re: Elite Overproduction

#88

Post by csa »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #70
terminalshort wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities were just elite finishing schools. It's a status signal to be able to afford to spend 4 years of your youth not working, partying, and paying tuition to "study" subjects that have no economic value (studying practical things like medicine and law was not elite because it shows that you need to work for a living). This stopped being a status signal with the advent student loans because it removed the excl…

> Universities were just elite finishing schools. Quite some time ago, I read the claim on HN that in the USA, elite universities rather serve the purpose that - "rich/elite" kids, and - highly smart and ambitious kids get mixed together so that when they finish university, these groups become (mostly) indistinguishable. The reason why this a central purpose of elite universities is that these two groups need each ot…

> get mixed together so that when they finish university, these groups become (mostly) indistinguishable

Sort of.

1. It’s a place where capital can make friends with capable people who will be willing to work for them later.

2. It gives the smart and ambitious “commoners” enough exposure to elite social circles such that they can learn and adapt some/most of the social standards (if they choose to do so, which most don’t). This is important, as all the brains in the world won’t do you much good if you don’t fit in, especially when it comes to the bigger money positions.

3. The social shibboleths between the two groups are very real, and it usually takes less than 5 minutes hanging around someone to know which group they are in. There can be some false signals about being higher status, but those are hard to sustain for very long.

Note that many “commoners” who go to elite schools end up hitting a glass ceiling in their 30s or so due to focusing on being smart and a skill person rather than being a socially savvy person. The social people will be able to make it rain later in life, and the skill people just get shifted around as needed.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#89

Post by morkalork »

betaby wrote: post #86
TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

> But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. If the programmers fall into the "educated professional class", then no, not in Canada. I personally know people with engineering/science degrees who became "warehouse sorters", baristas, metal workers, parcel deliverers, cooks in cafeteria. Some of them eventually found programming jobs again, others are still employed in blue collar/…

Canadian programming job market is weird, places are hiring and can't find people, and people are looking and not being hired. IMO nobody wants a junior and everyone wants the mythically perfect candidate. Employers are gonna have to bite the bullet and hire people less qualified and train them up but they refuse.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#90

Post by BobaFloutist »

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. The system has to change , because it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter. If AI really m…

>it is unthinkable for some professional with a master's degree to become a warehouse sorter.

I mean I think you do actually have a salient point, but I also think there's a material difference between telling someone that's maybe been paid not a lot for half a of labor that they need to change industries and someone who's tens of thousands of dollars into debt that the implied social contract encouraging that debt was a house of cards and they need to start from scratch with 0 experience even ever being employed.

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