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Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

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Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#81

Post by electrosphere »

canpan wrote: post #11
avidiax wrote: post #5

I feel that everyone could learn and apply the idea of having clear, concise language without jargon. I've hear this notion called "international English". English spoken in a way that non-native speakers find relatively easy to understand and follow. The hard part of this is that non-native speakers will rarely ask for this. It's a gift that you have to give, and a gift you have to encourage others to give. And most…

I speak multiple languages fluently and people are always surprised when I share that my vocabulary is seriously limited. I learned it is an advantage. I am forced to use simple words to explain. On the opposite end: I had a coworker, I only ever got about 30% of what he said. I thought it's my Japanese skills. He used complicated sentences and words all over the place. But when I asked other Japanese coworkers, they…

> I am forced to use simple words to explain

I work with mostly Polish engineers and I am struck by how clear and concise their English verbal comms are. I admire it actually.

I'm a native UK English speaker and I wish I had the simple directness that the Poles, Dutch etc have.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#82

Post by aleph_minus_one »

socalgal2 wrote: post #68
3371 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do (your country) people know Japanese?

I'm not sure what this question was meant to convey. There are many countries (or cities) in the world where you can easily get by in English beacuse almost everyone you need to / want to interact with can speak English. Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, Stockholm are 4 the come to mind even though their native languages are Dutch, French, German, Swedish. Japan is not one of those countries. Yes, you can survive without spe…

> Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, Stockholm are 4 the come to mind even though their native languages are Dutch, French, German, Swedish.

Berlin is very much an exception to basically everything in Germany. Concerning Paris: many French people speak bad English.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#83

Post by satvikpendem »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #40
financltravsty wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense? User-facing touch points: everything a user can interact with Sign-up friction: self explanatory Stickiness: less bounce rate Lean: don't overload with touch points/bloat

You’re actually using jargon to explain jargon here. Try explaining all of this from the user’s perspective.

Terms of art exist, and none of these are unknown terms to people in the field. Jargon is specifically used to communicate certain ideas without defining each and every single term. If you were in an aerospace field and people started talking about various types of engines and propellers, you'd be expected to know what it means, but for some reason people think computing and UX is somehow different, as if a lay person should perfectly understand it without learning any new terms.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#84

Post by satvikpendem »

orthoxerox wrote: post #78
avidiax wrote: post #5

I feel that everyone could learn and apply the idea of having clear, concise language without jargon. I've hear this notion called "international English". English spoken in a way that non-native speakers find relatively easy to understand and follow. The hard part of this is that non-native speakers will rarely ask for this. It's a gift that you have to give, and a gift you have to encourage others to give. And most…

It's always interesting to watch how a bunch of non-native speakers of English from different countries sitting in a room can talk to each easily, but when a Brit or an American joins, the conversation immediately collapses.

In what way? What I've seen is the native English speaker bends over backwards to explain each and every idiom or try to not use them in the first place.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#85

Post by unsupp0rted »

Most Americans / Brits I've interacted with don't know what a phrasal verb is and don't realize they're hard to parse. Canadians and Kiwis too, but they've often got much more experience interacting with non-native English speakers.

Take out vs. Take up vs. Take in vs. Take on, etc

I try to avoid using phrasal verbs wherever a simple verb will do. And if I have to use a phrasal verb, I try to keep it together: "let's take on this task" vs. "Let's take this task on". The latter requires an extra effort to parse. But obviously "let's take this task" works too and is simpler.

The worst is when Americans use baseball idioms without even noticing they've switched away from "base-level English".

> If we get this shipped by the end of the month it'll be a homerun, and if by the end of the week then I'll consider that a grand slam.

So... ship soon = good then, got it.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#86

Post by cedws »

satvikpendem wrote: post #79
cedws wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I lived in Tokyo for 6 months as a digital nomad (so still working for an overseas employer.) As much as I love Japan, after hearing what the work culture is like I became pretty sure I didn't want to move there permanently. Not only is it an extremely unmeritocratic environment, the pay for software engs is rubbish. As a foreigner you'll more than likely be treated like dirt and passed up on for promotions. I…

It's worth living in Japan if you can control your work schedule, by working for a remote Western employer that may not know nor care that you're outside the West, or by having your own startup and product. Otherwise I'd agree.

Yes, those are the only circumstances I'd recommend for staying in Japan, but they're only short term (1 year or less.) Working holiday is also nice if you're young. I met a few people working in hostels doing it, obviously doesn't pay much but gives you a place to sleep and a means to stay in the country for a while.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#87

Post by sdevonoes »

satvikpendem wrote: post #84
orthoxerox wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always interesting to watch how a bunch of non-native speakers of English from different countries sitting in a room can talk to each easily, but when a Brit or an American joins, the conversation immediately collapses.

In what way? What I've seen is the native English speaker bends over backwards to explain each and every idiom or try to not use them in the first place.

As a non native English speaker: British accent is harder to understand (I know there are many accents in the UK). American accent is easier to understand. Idioms are equally harder to understand in both.

For example “bend over backwards”. I get the meaning, but my brain would never produce that phrase. I would say something like “adapts”, “compromises”, etc.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#88

Post by axpy906 »

socalgal2 wrote: post #66
muyuu wrote: post #38

I worked in Japan for ~7 years. I don't think I can relate with any of this, for starters I think not speaking Japanese relatively fluently would completely shape your experience from the get go. Granted, this was a long time ago and even seeing non-Japanese around in Tokyo was rare, unlike now. But in the office environment let alone in tech, I doubt you can really make it work without not just speaking Japanese, bu…

I agree with you. The person in the article worked at Mercari which I used to go their tech meetups. The moment you entered it was as though you teleported into an SF/SV meetup. Mostly English speaking people with English presentations in a room with an SV like microkitchen, free SV snacks, etc... That's not the norm at all.

Yeah, saw Mericari and had some flashing lights go off.

Most Japanese tech is in - well Japanese - companies like Mericari, Woven and Rakuten are exceptions, hence you get a blog post on how to speak English properly.

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#89

Post by numpad0 »

numpad0 wrote: post #62
founditerating wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who the hell talks like this in the first place? I've worked in Japan for 7 years and majority of the time you will not be working with native English speakers, usually people who speak multiple languages at all times, if you're only language you know is English you are the minority and people will have to work with you to understand. I couldnt even finish the article after that insane ramble of gibberish I'm genuine…

> Who the hell talks like this in the first place? guys that aren't sure if the yellow isn't too much

(facepalm I meant the neo)

Re: Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers

#90

Post by dafelst »

keiferski wrote: post #9
ilamont wrote: post #2

developers from the West see no problem with clearly stating their opposition to a topic and listing the reasons why they oppose it—in many ways, this is seen as good, clear communication. This style can sometimes be jarring to Japanese speakers, who generally prefer to avoid anything that could be taken as blunt or confrontational. This was buried at the end of the essay, but is one of the most important points. I w…

From what I understand, it’s not so much that all disagreement is to be avoided entirely, but rather that it should be done on an individual level prior to the meeting. So the fundamental difference is that a western company may use the meeting as an opportunity to discuss and debate an issue, whereas that process is done before the meeting in Japanese corporate culture.

Yeah, the concept of "nemawashi" (根回し) is very important there, this idea that all the groundwork and decision making is agreed upon before the meeting happens.

The term literally comes from the concept of "preparing the roots", that is, the process of softening the ground and trimming around the roots of a tree (often a bonsai) in preparation for moving it safely.

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