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Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

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Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#81

Post by josephg »

fsckboy wrote: post #79
tliltocatl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Linux it will be way more problematic because: - A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV. - Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA. - Linus himself is CA's resident AFAIR. So there is zero chance of claiming no jurisdiction. The only hope is whoever is enforcing this batshit wouldn't go after what is essentially not an OS for the purpose of the bill, but rather an internal component (it would be like go…

"Linux" is just the source code to the kernel, pure free speech, and it can't run by itself in order to ask anybody anything. Underage programmers will benefit from the education of reading it.

Exactly. More bluntly, the Linux kernel isn't an operating system.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#83

Post by fc417fc802 »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #67
fc417fc802 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

I don’t agree. It’s still ultimately up to the parent to keep an eye on what their kids are up to, talk to them and prepare them to handle ugly things (which they will encounter at some point whether you prepare them for it or not, no matter how hard you try to keep them in a bubble), and if they feel necessary impose restrictions on a household basis. Even if I did agree, the implementations being rolled out present…

I agree with you about the proposed implementations. I don't think ID checks are justifiable and I definitely don't think attestation is acceptable as a public policy under any circumstance.

I agree with you that it's up to the parent to keep an eye on their children. But I also think that society has a duty to facilitate that. To that end, I think some minimal regulation regarding self reported content ratings for websites would probably be a good thing.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#84

Post by fc417fc802 »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #63
fc417fc802 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where…

You've confused and confabulated like 11 different things there. None of what you said has anything to do with either what I said or what the law says. The way this currently exists is basically unenfoceable because the critical terms are not even defined. It's not even ultimately intelligible, which is a prerequisite to enforcing, or even being able to tell where it does and does not apply, and whether some covered…

> You've confused and confabulated like 11 different things there.

Feel free to elaborate. As it stands that's nothing more than name calling.

I wasn't speaking to the current CA or CO proposed implementations (which I don't support as it happens). I responded specifically to your statement:

> It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action.

My response being that I think it's acceptable for the regulator to require action under certain limited circumstances.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#85

Post by kelnos »

Buttons840 wrote: post #76
hotsalad wrote: post #75

If I'm reading the (L)GPL correctly (but I'm not a lawyer), this notice should be completely ignored: Section 7 says: All other non-permissive additional terms are considered “further restrictions” within the meaning of section 10. If the Program as you received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is governed by this License along with a term that is a further restriction, you may remove that ter…

The copyright holder isn't bound by their own license though. Although, if there are many contributors to the project, there may not be a clear copyright holder.

Of course, the copyright holder can license as they wish. But the quoted terms of the GPL are in the license that the author is distributing with the software, so we can also follow the terms of the GPL and remove the extra restriction they just added. The author is trying to do contradictory things: add extra restrictions, but release under the terms of a license that allow us to remove those extra restrictions.

If they want to add that restriction, they cannot release it under the GPL; they need to pick another license, or modify the GPL to their liking and then call it something else (assuming the copyright terms of the GPL allow you to make a derived work of the license itself).

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#86

Post by kelnos »

tliltocatl wrote: post #8

IANAL, but the whole thing feels quite problematic. Should we interpret the prohibition as a licensing condition "a resident using our IP is violating the contract" or as an informative note "we are not compliant and we are not ever going to be compliant so a resident using the IP is violating local laws"? I'd expect the intent to be the latter, but would it hold in front of a judge? If the notice is a licensing cond…

> GPLv3 clearly has no provisions to introduce arbitrary prohibitions into the license without losing compatibility.

It's not even just that. The license expressly forbids adding other conditions and restrictions, and says that people who receive software, licensed under the GPL, with added conditions ore restrictions, can just remove those restrictions.

If the author really wants to add a restriction like this, they have to switch to a different license.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#87

Post by kelnos »

mcmcmc wrote: post #20
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all. It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it'…

> Obviously there should be some limits on what teenagers and children can access Is it? The only people who should be deciding those limits are parents. If they fail to set and enforce those limits then any negative outcomes for the child are due to their own negligence, and can be adjudicated as child abuse per those laws.

Exactly. OS makers should build fine-grained parental controls into their OSes, and parents, and only parents, get to decide how much (if any at all) of that to enable for their children.

(And OS makers need to get better at this; from what I understand, it's not difficult for savvy kids to bypass parental controls on iOS and Android.)

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#88

Post by kelnos »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #53
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all. It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it'…

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

You be a parent and set limits on your children's behavior. You enforce it through the usual means. You don't rely on a nanny-state government to do it for you. That's abandoning your responsibility as a parent.

And let's not seriously try to say internet availability is the same as free-for-all liquor stores and casinos on as your physical neighbors. It's just not. It's still easier to restrict what a kid does online than it is to restrict their physical movements.

(And frankly, it's not that hard to restrict a kid's physical movements.)

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#89

Post by kelnos »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #83
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t agree. It’s still ultimately up to the parent to keep an eye on what their kids are up to, talk to them and prepare them to handle ugly things (which they will encounter at some point whether you prepare them for it or not, no matter how hard you try to keep them in a bubble), and if they feel necessary impose restrictions on a household basis. Even if I did agree, the implementations being rolled out present…

I agree with you about the proposed implementations. I don't think ID checks are justifiable and I definitely don't think attestation is acceptable as a public policy under any circumstance. I agree with you that it's up to the parent to keep an eye on their children. But I also think that society has a duty to facilitate that. To that end, I think some minimal regulation regarding self reported content ratings for w…

> But I also think that society has a duty to facilitate that.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The disagreement is around how intrusive the government should be in facilitating that. And some people (myself included) believe that these sorts of age checks and attestation are too intrusive, even if the stated goal is a good one.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#90

Post by kelnos »

tliltocatl wrote: post #56
fc417fc802 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

You shouldn't apply that kind of thinking to global things . Because what you end up doing is nuking library on earth - there might be a casino somewhere near there. I see your concerns, but, ultimately, parent's carving for a comfortable illusion of control is less important than child's rights. And yes, I'll repeat it again, it's not child's best interest to have their surroundings controlled and censored. And for…

> Once a teen is interested in getting into the edgy stuff there is no amount of regulation can stop them.

That's really the thing too. I did grow up in the 80s and 90s, and I managed to find porn and all other sorts of things that my parents didn't want me to have or do. And I wasn't even a bad, difficult-to-parent kid. I was just a pre-teen and teen who wanted to do stuff my parents didn't approve of, just like pretty much every other kid on the planet.

In the end, I turned out fine! Not perfect (I have my issues, like most of us), but I'm happy and successful. I have no doubt that the same would be true if I'd grown up in the 00s like you did.

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