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Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

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Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#81

Post by tpm »

gnull wrote: post #74
tpm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. They have done this back in 2010's and decided that EU is the safe and prosperous future they want. In response, Russian mass murderers invaded and started to kill them. That is indeed a great ad for safety and prosperity inside the Russian world: you wi…

[flagged]

> The society was split about this idea

Yes, this is how democracy works. Then a decision is made and the society rolls with it. See the UK for example: a decision was made to leave the EU, they left, it cost them a lot of money and goodwill, but it works, worse than being in the EU but works. The EU did not invade, did not bomb their cities, did not rape their women and did not steal their children. And crucially the EU did not blame the citizens of the UK exercising their free will for mass murdering them.

Now look at the sad Russia you are worshipping.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#82

Post by gnull »

mopsi wrote: post #80
gnull wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. And you keep babbling and restating your point instead of proving it because you've got an overwhelming proof, you're just too polite to share it with us.

There's nothing to prove; by definition, elections != coup.

Is this trolling by stupidity? You are irredeemable. I wasn't talking about elections, I meant everything before it that caused premature elections in 2014.

Was there something major that happened in 2013-2014 involving violence that interrupted the term of elected, legitimate president Yanukovich? Can you recall?

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#83

Post by mopsi »

gnull wrote: post #82
mopsi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to prove; by definition, elections != coup.

Is this trolling by stupidity? You are irredeemable. I wasn't talking about elections, I meant everything before it that caused premature elections in 2014. Was there something major that happened in 2013-2014 involving violence that interrupted the term of elected, legitimate president Yanukovich? Can you recall?

  > Was there something major that happened in 2013-2014 involving violence that interrupted the term of elected, legitimate president Yanukovich?
Yes; under extreme Russian pressure, Yanukovych blocked the passage of the highly anticipated Ukraine-EU trade treaty. This led to massive protests. He sent paid thugs (titushky) to harass and beat the protesters, but the protests only grew larger. When he panicked, about 100 protesters were shot in a single day. From that moment, he was politically a corpse and lost the support of even his own party. He ran away into hiding to escape arrest, and the Ukrainian parliament assembled and unanimously voted to hold snap elections, which took place a few months later.

This is the polar opposite of illegal seizure of power by a small group of people, or a coup.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#84

Post by ahf8Aithaex7Nai »

BrenBarn wrote: post #57
gnull wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like trying to use tropes from a superficial Hollywood action movie in real life, not my thing. I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. At the same time the government ideologues are trying to indoctrinate him with nationalism to sacrifice it all for their goa…

Do you think that it is meaningful to think about things being good or evil in a manner that is separate from what is "safe" or "prosperous"? If someone points a gun at you and demands all your money, the safe thing is to give it to them. Does that mean it's a good outcome for all?

It is productive to think about the world in terms of good and evil. But if you really engage with more complex events in an intellectually honest way, you will always find that they cannot be easily mapped onto the poles of geopolitical conflicts, as you would like them to be, if I am interpreting the thrust of your question correctly.

If someone points a gun at you, if the threat seems credible, and if you are defenseless against it, and if you would rather be shot than hand over your wallet, then I can only interpret that as false pride, but not as rational behavior and certainly not as ethical behavior. This is all the more true if you are not making this decision for yourself alone.

It is not heroic to die because you did not want to give in out of personal pride, national consciousness, or other false ideals. It is heroic to accept a loss of face in such a difficult situation in order to avert or minimize harm to yourself and others.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#85

Post by kakacik »

gnull wrote: post #46
victorbjorklund wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess, you think that Ukrainians also really want to be part of Russia and that they are just being manipulated by Westerners and that true Ukrainians wanna be part of Russian Empire? And that Russians are just liberating them.

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like trying to use tropes from a superficial Hollywood action movie in real life, not my thing. I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. At the same time the government ideologues are trying to indoctrinate him with nationalism to sacrifice it all for their goa…

For some reason, non-trivial amount of people prefer living in freedom instead of oppression, heck even risk their lives to have a better future for themselves and their children. russia offers none of that even to core russians, its a neonazi oligarch mafia state that treats its own citizens like disposable garbage, the minorities in far regions even much worse. I've grown up during communism in one of their subjugated vasal states, and we were basically in concentration camp - no movement outside the borders even within eastern bloc unless approved by regime, no freedom of thought or expression, any dissent was crushed brutally. Their troops in our country were around 5% of our population by numbers just to make sure there are no funky freedom ideas happening.

If you ever cared about history you can trivially find absolutely horrible things russians/soviets (always coming from moscow which always sets the tone) did consistently to Ukraine. If you ever care about facts you could trivially check how russian oppressors behave on conquered ukrainian territories these days - mass executions of civilians, torture chambers in every second home, old grannies shot in the back of their head from point blank range with hands tied behind their backs, lying in mass graves - the stories around 2023when Ukraine managed to free up some territory were pretty consistent.

So no, you are incorrect, if you ever cared about the topic you would know it pretty well. Or you know it and try to make some soft influence on the topic. Unfortunately russia is such a horrible actor these days, at this point universally and globally despised so that it became an insult to be called russian or associated with it in most places around the world. Their own doing, and when facing ridiculous defeat and humiliation they just double down in that clown theatre.

The fact that most russians still support invasion and random independent polls end up with consistent strong support for war and all ridiculous russian claims, leaves practically no hope for their future. Cancer of the humanity at this point, its easier to have more respect for North Korea regime.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#86

Post by fodkodrasz »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #31
gnull wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they will benefit from that integration much. But I'm pretty sure the way there will hurt. Georgia's economy is tied to Russia at the moment, and as you said Westerners are not exactly lining up to travel to Georgia and order its wine (Russians are). The narrative "people want EU (aka freedom and democracy), but bad dictators won't let them" is a populist one. And EU has been using it like carrot and stick to…

Let me guess, you think that Ukrainians also really want to be part of Russia and that they are just being manipulated by Westerners and that true Ukrainians wanna be part of Russian Empire? And that Russians are just liberating them.

A key difference is that Ukraine has land borders with the EU, with significant potential for trade, while Georgia lacks land borders with the EU which limits the potential in harnessing the single market.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#87

Post by ZoomZoomZoom »

impossiblefork wrote: post #44
riffraff wrote: post #3

Georgian cuisine and drinking is little known in the west but it's really, really good. It's a pity the country has been democratically backsliding for a while, which has limited their hopes of tighter integration with the EU.

I wouldn't call it democratic backsliding. I think it's more rightly interpreted as a soft coup by Russia.

It's not polite to deny a country the agency to backslide on their own.

The corrupt class is, of course, following the oppression guide, so graciously provided and field-tested by their northern neighbour, rather diligently.

It would be unwise to overstate their (elite's) autonomy, considering economical and cultural ties on all levels, though.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#88

Post by tpm »

fodkodrasz wrote: post #86
victorbjorklund wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess, you think that Ukrainians also really want to be part of Russia and that they are just being manipulated by Westerners and that true Ukrainians wanna be part of Russian Empire? And that Russians are just liberating them.

A key difference is that Ukraine has land borders with the EU, with significant potential for trade, while Georgia lacks land borders with the EU which limits the potential in harnessing the single market.

That's not a key difference though, that's the same situation Greece was from 1981 until 2007 when Bulgaria and Romania joined, and Ireland, Cyprus and Malta are still in this situation (unlikely to change). And again similar to Greece and Ireland Georgia has access to sea ports, and Bulgaria and Romanian ports are not far away.

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#89

Post by gnull »

mopsi wrote: post #83
gnull wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this trolling by stupidity? You are irredeemable. I wasn't talking about elections, I meant everything before it that caused premature elections in 2014. Was there something major that happened in 2013-2014 involving violence that interrupted the term of elected, legitimate president Yanukovich? Can you recall?

> Was there something major that happened in 2013-2014 involving violence that interrupted the term of elected, legitimate president Yanukovich? Yes; under extreme Russian pressure, Yanukovych blocked the passage of the highly anticipated Ukraine-EU trade treaty. This led to massive protests. He sent paid thugs (titushky) to harass and beat the protesters, but the protests only grew larger. When he panicked, about 10…

Are there any key details you're leaving out? Is there a chance you creatively picked what to leave out in a way that serves the view you're sympathetic to?

Re: Georgian wine culture dates back, uninterrupted, approximately 8k years

#90

Post by gnull »

tpm wrote: post #81
gnull wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The society was split about this idea Yes, this is how democracy works. Then a decision is made and the society rolls with it. See the UK for example: a decision was made to leave the EU, they left, it cost them a lot of money and goodwill, but it works, worse than being in the EU but works. The EU did not invade, did not bomb their cities, did not rape their women and did not steal their children. And crucially th…

I agree about democracy. What I was referring to is that part of the society didn't roll with the legitimate leader's decision not to align with EU in 2013. And it was undemocratic.

I stressed that it was split, and the democratic thing to do would be to wait another year until the next election, where everyone will be given equal opportunity to express their choice and determine what's the next thing we're rolling with. But we'll never know what they'd choose because some chose to protest, and then continue doing so when it git violent. Give me one reason why Maidan organizers couldn't go home in 2013 and just vote a year later.

Maybe there could have been a referendum on EU course. But we'll never know, since neither Yanukovich nor pro-EU leaders have conducted one.

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