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Russia's economy has entered the death zone

economist.com

81–90 of 245 posts

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#81
post #57
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will sell their gas at discount to China until the very end. Yes and no. There's a minimum price they need to sell it, and somewhere in between they may not actually make enough between the minimum and sale price to actually fund their military. Nevermind the awesome job you guys are doing blowing up refineries and other industrial facilities. It'll be good when Europe stops importing Russian gas and steps up…

I favor harsher sanctions against Russia but let's not be too optimistic. It doesn't take much funding to recruit a poor, desperate guy from the outer provinces, hand him a surplus rifle, and send him into a human wave attack. In a perverse sort of way, killing off those guys might actually be reducing Russian government expenses.

The bad thing is, they always did this and it worked. The good thing is, those russians stopped growing back with birthrates being one of the lowest in the world. We might just see a world without any russians in a few decades. What a dream

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#82
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will sell their gas at discount to China until the very end. Yes and no. There's a minimum price they need to sell it, and somewhere in between they may not actually make enough between the minimum and sale price to actually fund their military. Nevermind the awesome job you guys are doing blowing up refineries and other industrial facilities. It'll be good when Europe stops importing Russian gas and steps up…

> Sanctions can and will work against Russia. We hear this mantra since almost 5 years. I am not saying there should not be sanctions, but at some point the strategic lies need to end.

Maybe you should update your epistemology and stop listening to the guys that said so; I listen to the experts who say (since 2022) sanctions hurt, but russia is like a big tree - even if you poison it, it won't fall on the next day; it doesn't help that russia has disproportionately big spy network - people will take more abuse before they rebel against their government.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#83
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is probably true, but if they are selling at a loss, it can only go on for so long.

Ukraine might have less time than Russia does. Russia only has to survive 1 day more.

But then what, become a part of China? I don't think Russia could defend themselves from an attack of a lesser nation right now, and I truly wish one of them would take opportunity

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#84
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

economist.com is a website. It's not, and doesn't represent, the whole of western civilization.

Are you sure? Which western media says different opinion?

90% of the media in the US is owned by 6 companies [1]. We, the people of the western civilization, are not those 6 companies. Most of us don't trust the media [2]. With that freedom of speech, these "news" agencies can be as biased as they want, lie in all sorts of ways (omission, etc), they mostly just can't slander/defame. Almost all are strongly aligned to the republican party or democratic, and all of them are aligned to common goals like oil and Israel. It's best to watch the news knowing that there's an attempt at manipulation. Luckily, with the anti-alignment of the news agencies, the "other side" will often loudly point out flaws.

The only hope for reasonable context/nuance over here is through independent journalists.

Don't just the world through the lens of a few billionaires.

[1] https://pwestpathfinder.com/2022/05/09/the-big-sixs-big-medi...

[2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/695762/trust-media-new-low.aspx

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#85
Russia‘s international reserves are at all time high at the moment (800B$), of which only 300B are frozen by sanctions. Doesn’t look like a sign of a death zone. The arguments for it are questionable:

>Consider the arithmetics of descent for the Kremlin. Russia’s defence sector now accounts for around 8% of GDP. Demobilising without falling into a crisis would require five conditions to be met simultaneously: credible security guarantees that satisfy the Kremlin’s threat perceptions (which in turn will determine the extent to which it rebuilds its military capabilities);

Likely result of a peace deal. Trump wants to sign it and focus on China, so some pragmatic arrangement to be expected.

> mass demobilisation with effective retraining programmes;

The easiest part. The scale of mobilization was relatively small compared to total workforce. Not sure why effective retraining sounds like a problem.

>at least partial sanctions relief for technology access;

Russia has gaps in electronics (can buy from China) and in aviation (sanctions likely to be lifted in exchange for opening transit routes). In software it is still ahead of Europe, having strong national players in AI, banking, marketplaces etc. It may need Western tech to roll out 5G, but given that they already plan it, they probably already have access to Chinese tech.

>a revolution in defence procurement that prioritises efficiency over budget absorption;

Not clear why this is relevant. The defense spending will wind down gradually, it is likely already more efficient than before the war.

> and a healthy ecosystem of small and mid-size firms capable of absorbing reallocated resources and boosting innovation.

Will likely happen as soon as tax relief will be affordable, i.e. in 1 or 2 years after the peace deal. Resilience of Russian SMEs is something developed over decades. It might happen that Dubai and South Caucasus Russian tech hubs will go home. Most importantly, there will be a huge amount of money spent on new territories similarly to infrastructure investments in Crimea, which will add few percentage of growth to GDP.

> The probability of all five converging is near zero.

This is the most interesting part of the article, but it left unexplained. Why?

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#86
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine might have less time than Russia does. Russia only has to survive 1 day more.

I agree with your point overall but realistically speaking, its not like the death of Ukraine will fix Russias economy, even if it did: not in a single day. You can exhaust yourself completely and be dead on your feet. Doomed, is the expression.

There is a strain of thought in Russian political circles that they'll be doomed anyway due to lack of defensible borders if they fail to capture Ukraine. This could explain some of their actions that otherwise seem irrational and counterproductive.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#87
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's misunderstanding the model of actors. "Russia" isn't "Putin". "Countries" act in the best interests of their power structure, not their leaders. Basically: the way this ends is when the collective will of the power centers (generally the armed forces, though not always) decide that they'll be wealthier and happier with Putin gone than by following more orders. And obviously that's an unstable/unpredictable equ…

> That's misunderstanding the model of actors. "Russia" isn't "Putin". "Countries" act in the best interests of their power structure, not their leaders. No, I am not misunderstanding. For all intents and purposes, at the moment Putin’s will is Russia’s will. And it looks like he knows his weaknesses within the country and is willing to let marginal populations bear the weight of his ambitions while keeping his power…

"There will not be a coup" is on the tombstone of like every failed leader ever. Economics doesn't change. Countries aren't people, even if the people running them try desperately to make you think so.

I'm not saying that Putin is going to be deposed next week, or year, or even ever. I'm saying that the Russian government is no less susceptible to the circumstances that produce coups than any other failed state, and failed states are the circumstances that produce coups.

At the end of the day, all government is ultimately by the consent of the governed. But predicting how and when that consent will be withdrawn that's is hard part.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia could end the war today if it wanted to.

Same for the West. If they do, they loose. That sets their position in the world. Who’d fear them? They can’t even win over a country which is much smaller and weaker than they are.

Who fears, say, Canada? Lots of countries go on perfectly well without being feared. Russia could, too.

The problem isn't Russia, inherently. The problem is Putin. He cannot survive (probably literally) without being feared.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you imagine Ukraine's desire for sovereignty would be exhausted before Russia's stomach for economic hardship? Do you really think the Russia public has the stamina even for the 4 more years it will take them to capture the rest of Donbas?

Russia doesn’t have any other choice, than to continue. Same applies for the West.

russia has a choice. putin doesn't.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#90

Any insights (anecdotes) from those in Russia and willing to opine on whether the economy seems like its collapsing presently?

I am not in Russia, but I have friends in Russia and visit Russia once a year or so.

From what I see there is no visible economy problems in Russia. Yes, there are some temporary issues in some areas, but generally it's resolved promptly.

There is some decrease of real salary/price increase, but not that significant. Probably situation in EU is worse.

It looks like economic block of Russian government is really professional and know what to do. It's not typical for government in Russia ;)

Also it helps that people are locked in country by western countries, so many stays in country and drives the economy.

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