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11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

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Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#81

Post by croisillon »

mrweasel wrote: post #52
croisillon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we are guests but when we donate blood they strangely don't offer to send the blood to our origin coutry? when we pay taxes they strangely don't offer to let us off? so are we just guests or are we part of the nation too?

It's a challenge for sure. The problem is that some EU countries aren't that big, and moving the government in one direction or another is entirely possible if you can just move a small amount of people to that country, which they are free to do. E.g. moving 50.000 Hungarians to a Nordic or Baltic country can change governments. If we assume the best, there should not be a problem in letting people vote for the gover…

you will be shocked to discover that no one is an island but ok you send 50 000 Hungarians north, they live through the 9 months winters, i guess they find a job, learn the language, marry the people and then what's the plan? for them to suddenly make hungarian the official language? let me guess you've never left Nebrahoma? this is laughable

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#83

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

mrweasel wrote: post #22

Note that they can vote in local election (municipal and regional) and for the EU parliament, the article does mention this, but it is a bit hidden. I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type. It seems unfair to let the large number of other European living in the UK have influence on whether or not the UK was to stay, as they are still guests. Same for government…

> I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type

I'm a UK citizen who was denied the right to vote in the Brexit election. I normally choose not to vote in any UK elections, because I haven't lived there for 36 years and have no intention to return. However, Brexit was a different kettle of fish entirely, and Cameron promised that the "gone for 15 years, no vote" rule would be repealed before the vote. It was not, and tens of millions of UK expatriates were denied the right to vote on their ability to live in the EU.

Absolutely disgraceful.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#84

Post by JuniperMesos »

logicchains wrote: post #18
JuniperMesos wrote: post #8

One of the best arguments against immigration is that, if you allow people to move to your country, even as non-citizen guest workers, they will eventually demand political rights in your country using their physical presence in a democracy as a moral justification. In other words, the only way to keep foreigners from influencing the laws and norms you live under is to physically bar them from your polity entirely.

>One of the best arguments against immigration is that, if you allow people to move to your country, even as non-citizen guest workers, they will eventually demand political rights in your country using their physical presence in a democracy as a moral justification That could just as easily be an argument against democracy. The Gulf monarchies have large numbers of non-citizen guest workers, in the case of the UAE o…

Yes, it is an argument against democracy. Or, more radically, an argument against the entire system of Westphalian states that control swaths of territory on the Earth's surface and that human beings are legal citizens of, as the way that human political organization is done.

> The Gulf monarchies have large numbers of non-citizen guest workers, in the case of the UAE over 80% of the population, but they don't have any of the problems western countries have with migrants, because migrants have no political power and aren't eligible for welfare.

Sometimes pro-immigration economic liberals cite the Gulf experience with immigrants as an argument for why western democracies should have open borders or at least much more liberalized immigration policy. The pro-open-borders libertarian economist Bryan Caplan has made this specific argument for instance. Setting aside the fact that these countries are not democracies even for their own citizens, if 80% of the human beings physically resident within your borders are non-citizen guest workers, I would be worried about the possibility of formally-illegal violent uprising.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#85

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

Hamuko wrote: post #57
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EUROSTAT. They are running regular surveys. From when they stated to today, the affiliation with Europe went up. Some somewhat recent data is here: https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2971 Given the dramatic amount of in EU migration that is not too surprising.

This data seems to suggest something completely different than that people are associating as citizens of EU instead of citizens of their respective countries. 93% of respondents are correct in that you become an EU citizen automatically by living in an EU country, and 87% "feel" that they're EU citizens.

I am not saying that European citizens are saying they are saying they are European over their nationality, but that the trend towards a European identity is going up over time.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#86

Post by throwawa83737 »

I kinda agree, we should allow people to vote in a country they live in and contribute to. There should be a reasonably difficult process where you show you have strong ties and commitment to the country and you get the voting rights. You should only have one at a time. We could call it a citizenship or something.

Jokes aside, I don't understand what they are asking for. "Allowing people to vote where they live would be a good start." After how long? Should I be able to vote in a foreign county if I move and work there for a month?

If anything, complain about specific citizenship process if it's unreasonable, but you have to respect that it's role of the citizens to define what are the rules.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#87

Post by kyboren »

jplaz wrote: post #4

Puerto Rico pays taxes to the U.S. government, yet its residents cannot vote in federal elections. Additionally, the Jones Act increases costs even more than on the mainland.

That's not entirely true. Yes, Puerto Ricans do pay some federal taxes (tariffs, FICA, gift and estate taxes) but do not pay federal income tax unless they have income from sources outside Puerto Rico.

Anyway many Puerto Ricans probably wish they were subject to federal income tax:

  As the cutoff point for income taxation in Puerto Rico is lower
  than that imposed by the U.S. IRS code and because the per-
  capita income in Puerto Rico is much lower than the average per-
  capita income of the US states, more Puerto Rico residents pay
  income taxes to the local taxation authority than if the IRS
  code were applied to the island.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#88

Post by JuniperMesos »

deanc wrote: post #11

This really resonates with me. I have lived in Finland for 16 years and struggled with work-life balance whilst trying to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world. Unless you pass the language exam you can't apply for citizenship - no matter how long you've been here for. And yet, the right-wing-ish coalition government is making hostile anti-immigration policies and increasing citizenship requirements…

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47007145 - someone who doesn't speak the language of a country immigrates there, and then demands political rights grounded in "how long you've been here for", specifically in order to oppose attempts to limit immigration.

> trying to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world.

There's no real principled, objective way to rank languages by how difficult they are to learn, except in terms of similarity to languages the learner already knows. Finnish isn't any more difficult than English in an objective sense, you just learned one as a small child from your native community rather than as an adult foreigner.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#89

Post by omnimus »

b112 wrote: post #75
maccard wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To throw it back at you- should a couple who have been together for 10 years be afforded the same rights as a married couple? > you don’t think they’re committed at that point and should have a right to vote in the society they are contributing to Honestly - no, I don’t. I think that voting in a GE is a huge privilege, and it should require an explicit declaration and an acceptance from the country they are part of.

I think you should look into common-law marriage. At least in Canada, living together for 2 years, means you are much closer to being married than not. It's even applicable for taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage Yes, you're not married. But you're not single either.

The article you are linking to specifically says that Canada doesn't have common law marriage only that “informal cohabitation relationships are recognised for certain purposes in Canada, creating legal rights and obligations”

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#90

Post by omnimus »

pbalau wrote: post #79
apignotti wrote: post #28

As far as I know lots of EU countries don't allow double citizenship. This implies that, even when having the prerequisites, acquiring the new citizenship for the sake of voting also mean losing the old citizenship altogether. At least for me this is too much to ask. I am happy with my life in my new country of residence, but I am still very connected to my heritage. On the other hand I would be quite happy to give u…

Sorry, but this is horse droppings, there seem to be 9 countries doing this. https://bestcitizens.com/2024/11/08/list-of-eu-countries-pro...

It's also going down as EU would prefer very easy transfers but single citizenship country.
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