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MinIO repository is no longer maintained

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Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then doing a bait-and-switch FOSS is not a moral contract. People working for free owe nothing to no one. You got what's on the tin - the code is as open source once they stop as when they started. The underlying assumption of your message is that you are somehow entitled to their continued labour which is absolutely not the case.

it's still a bait and switch, considering they started removing features before the abandonment.

Users can fork it from point they started removing features. Fully inside social, moral and spiritual contract of open source.

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#82
post #9

I just bit the bullet last week and figured we are going to migrate our self hosted minio servers to ceph instead. So far 3 server ceph cluster has been setup with cephadm and last minio server is currently mirroring its ~120TB buckets to new cluster with a whopping 420MB/s - should finish any day now. The complexity of ceph and it's cluster nature of course if a bit scary at first compared to minio - a single Go bin…

It's complex, but Ceph's storage and consensus layer is battle-tested and a much more solid foundation for serious use. Just make sure that your nodes don't run full!

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#83

[dead]

I guess we need a new type of Open Source license. One that is very permissive except if you are a company with a much larger revenue than the company funding the open source project, then you have to pay. While I loath the moves to closed source you also can't fault them the hyperscalers just outcompete them with their own software.

Various projects have invented licenses like that. Those licenses aren't free, so the FOSS crowd won't like them. Rather than inventing a new one, you're probably better grabbing whatever the other not-free-but-close-enough projects are doing. Legal teams don't like bespoke licenses very much which hurts adoption.

An alternative I've seen is "the code is proprietary for 1 year after it was written, after that it's MIT/GPL/etc.", which keeps the code entirely free(ish) but still prevents many businesses from getting rich off your product and leaving you in the dust.

You could also go for AGPL, which is to companies like Google like garlic is to vampires. That would hurt any open core style business you might want to build out of your project though, unless you don't accept external contributions.

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#85

They point to AIStor as alternative. Other alternatives: https://github.com/deuxfleurs-org/garage https://github.com/rustfs/rustfs https://github.com/seaweedfs/seaweedfs https://github.com/supabase/storage https://github.com/scality/cloudserver https://github.com/ceph/ceph Among others

from my experiences

rustfs have promise, supports a lot of features, even allows to bring your own secret/access keys (if you want to migrate without changing creds on clients) but it's very much still in-development; and they have already prepared for bait-and-switch in code ( https://github.com/rustfs/rustfs/blob/main/rustfs/src/licens... )

Ceph is closest feature wise to actual S3 feature-set wise but it's a lot to setup. It pretty much wants few local servers, you can replicate to another site but each site on its own is pretty latency sensitive between storage servers. It also offers many other features aside, as S3 is just built on top of their object store that can be also used for VM storage or even FUSE-compatible FS

Garage is great but it is very much "just to store stuff", it lacks features on both S3 side (S3 have a bunch of advanced ACLs many of the alternatives don't support, and stuff for HTTP headers too) and management side (stuff like "allow access key to access only certain path on the bucket is impossible for example). Also the clustering feature is very WAN-aware, unlike ceph where you pretty much have to have all your storage servers in same rack if you want a single site to have replication.

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#86
post #36

They point to AIStor as alternative. Other alternatives: https://github.com/deuxfleurs-org/garage https://github.com/rustfs/rustfs https://github.com/seaweedfs/seaweedfs https://github.com/supabase/storage https://github.com/scality/cloudserver https://github.com/ceph/ceph Among others

Apart from Minio, we tried Garage and Ceph. I think there's definitely a need for something that interfaces using S3 API but is just a simple file system underneath, for local, testing and small scale deployments. Not sure that exists? Of course a lot of stuff is being bolted onto S3 and it's not as simple as it initially claimed to be.

Minio started like that but they migrated away from it. It's just hard to keep it up once you start implementing advanced S3 features (versioning/legal hold, metadata etc.) and storage features (replication/erasure coding)

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#87
post #27

I ran a moderately large opensource service and my chronic back pain was cured the day I stopped maintaining the project. Working for free is not fun. Having a paid offering with a free community version is not fun. Ultimately, dealing with people who don't pay for your product is not fun. I learnt this the hard way and I guess the MinIO team learnt this as well.

There's nothing wrong at all with charging for your product. What I do take issue with, however, is convincing everyone that your product is FOSS, waiting until people undertake a lot of work to integrate your product into their infrastructure, and then doing a bait-and-switch. Just be honest since the start that your product will eventually abandon its FOSS licence. Then people can make an informed decision. Or, if…

> Just be honest since the start

While I agree with the sentiment, keep in mind that circumstances change over the years. What made sense (and what you've believed in) a few years ago may be different now. This is especially true when it comes to business models.

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#88
post #27

I ran a moderately large opensource service and my chronic back pain was cured the day I stopped maintaining the project. Working for free is not fun. Having a paid offering with a free community version is not fun. Ultimately, dealing with people who don't pay for your product is not fun. I learnt this the hard way and I guess the MinIO team learnt this as well.

There's nothing wrong at all with charging for your product. What I do take issue with, however, is convincing everyone that your product is FOSS, waiting until people undertake a lot of work to integrate your product into their infrastructure, and then doing a bait-and-switch. Just be honest since the start that your product will eventually abandon its FOSS licence. Then people can make an informed decision. Or, if…

It's part of the due diligence process for users to decide if they can trust a project.

I use a few simple heuristics:

- Evaluate who contributes regularly to a project. The more diverse this group is, the better. If it's a handful of individuals from 1 company, see other points. This doesn't have to be a show stopper. If it's a bit niche and only a handful of people contribute, you might want to think about what happens when these people stop doing that (like is happening here).

- Look at required contributor agreements and license. A serious red flag here is if a single company can effectively decide to change the license at any point they want to. Major projects like Terraform, Redis, Elasticsearch (repeatedly), etc. have exercised that option. It can be very disruptive when that happens.

- Evaluate the license allows you do what you need to do. Licenses like the AGPLv3 (which min.io used here) can be problematic on that front and comes with restrictions that corporate legal departments generally don't like. In the end choosing to use software is a business decision you take. Just make sure you understand what you are getting into and that this is OK with your company and compatible with business goals.

- Permissive licenses (MIT, BSD, Apache, etc.) are popular with larger companies and widely used on Github. They facilitate a neutral ground for competitors to collaborate. One aspect you should be aware off is that the very feature that makes them popular also means that contributors can take the software and create modifications under a different license. They generally can't re-license existing software or retroactively. But companies like Elasticsearch have switched from Apache 2.0 to closed source, and recently to AGPLv3. Opensearch remains Apache 2.0 and has a thriving community at this point.

- Look at the wider community behind a project. Who runs it; how professional are they (e.g. a foundation), etc. How likely would it be to survive something happening to the main company behind a thing? Companies tend to be less resilient than the open source projects they create over time. They fail, are subject to mergers and acquisitions, can end up in the hands of hedge funds, or big consulting companies like IBM. Many decades old OSS projects have survived multiple such events. Which makes them very safe bets.

None of these points have to be decisive. If you really like a company, you might be willing to overlook their less than ideal licensing or other potential red flags. And some things are not that critical if you have to replace them. This is about assessing risk and balancing the tradeoff of value against that.

Forks are always an option when bad things happen to projects. But that only works if there's a strong community capable of supporting such a fork and a license that makes that practical. The devil is in the details. When Redis announced their license change, the creation of Valkey was a foregone conclusion. There was just no way that wasn't going to happen. I think it only took a few months for the community to get organized around that. That's a good example of a good community.

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#89

They point to AIStor as alternative. Other alternatives: https://github.com/deuxfleurs-org/garage https://github.com/rustfs/rustfs https://github.com/seaweedfs/seaweedfs https://github.com/supabase/storage https://github.com/scality/cloudserver https://github.com/ceph/ceph Among others

Wrote a bit about differences between rustfs and garage here https://buttondown.com/justincormack/archive/ignore-previous... - since then rustfs fixed the issue I found. They are for very different use cases. Rustfs really is close to a minio rewrite.

there is one thing that worries me about rustfs: https://github.com/rustfs/rustfs/blob/main/rustfs/src/licens...

I expect rugpull in the future

Re: MinIO repository is no longer maintained

#90
post #79

AGPL is dead as a copy-left measure. LLMs do not understand, and would not care anyway, about regurgitating code that you have published to the internet.

no, it's actually great, that just means now all LLM code that included that needs to be AGPL-licensed
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