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Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

soapstone.mradford.com

81–90 of 109 posts

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#81

Instead, the approach that will continue increasing in dominance is hiring referrals and finding jobs through personal networks. In a world that increasingly resembles The Library of Babel, - the main way to know what's true is to tune into news sources you trust (monolithic old school media, or personality driven new-school media, social media, etc.), - the main way to learn what to watch/listen/read is to take reco…

Social affinity and reputation represent winning strategies that have served humans very well since the dawn of time. It shouldn't be surprising that they continue to be extremely effective even (or perhaps especially) in the age of AI.

>that have served humans very well since the dawn of time.

Except none of this scales in the modern world beyond flat small orgs in homogenous high trust cultures, basically modern tribes.

If you're a large org with diverse people from everywhere and you empower everyone down the ladder to hire the people they trust, they'll just end up gaming the system or hiring their friends and family and the org fails from nepotism, corruption and cronyism.

It's not like we don't have enough examples of this happening everywhere in the world, and why most places have official hiring policies against this behavior, or policies to obfuscate connections from the hiring pipeline to make sure people get in exclusively on merit.

It's also why socialism is only financially viable in small homogeneous communities (like the Amish for example) where everyone adheres to the social contract of contributing to society more than they take out, and is kept accountable by the ingroup to be honest, but fails at a nation level where everyone including the government in charge of managing it tries to defraud it or game the system in their favor taking out more than they contribute, leading to constant budget deficit and ultimately collapse (see EU state pension systems)

But yes, fully eliminating nepotism and cronyism via rules and laws is nearly impossible due to human own-group bias, so networking will always be a huge asset.

Although I might know a solution, hear me out. I have fond memories of being part of this amazing private torrent tracker back in the day, that was 100% invite only, and the way the community was kept honest and accountable to the spirit and the rules, was that every person was responsible for the people they invite, so if their invites would commit a bannable offense, their parent who invited them would also got banned, meaning people would be very selective with their invites, biasing more towards meritocracy rather than nepotism or selling their invites online for cash which was common back then. Feels like something that could scale IRL as well. You hire your friend that turns out to be a shit employee, you're out the door along with him.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#82
post #10

As someone who is currently looking for a job, I don't like this idea. All this does is increase the effort and barrier to entry to apply for a job. This is not a good thing. Applying to jobs is already time consuming as it is; nobody wants more hoops to jump through. I understand that recruiters/hiring managers/whatever get a lot of junk applications, but frankly, it is your job to sort through them. You are paid to…

This is beneficial to both parties, it's not just to throw spikes on the road for applicants without care.

The less nonsensical applications they get, the more time they can give your application.

> I understand that recruiters/hiring managers/whatever get a lot of junk applications, but frankly, it is your job to sort through them. You are paid to do this.

Indeed they are, and that is what they're doing by asking for a written application.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#83

Instead, the approach that will continue increasing in dominance is hiring referrals and finding jobs through personal networks. In a world that increasingly resembles The Library of Babel, - the main way to know what's true is to tune into news sources you trust (monolithic old school media, or personality driven new-school media, social media, etc.), - the main way to learn what to watch/listen/read is to take reco…

Social affinity and reputation represent winning strategies that have served humans very well since the dawn of time. It shouldn't be surprising that they continue to be extremely effective even (or perhaps especially) in the age of AI.

That's why "nepotism" still thrives, in spite of (at least here in the West) several generations being taught that it's bad, evil and unfair.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#84
What about doing more to retain employees? Maybe don't layoff employees each time someone on CNBC makes a comment about the company's overhead looking a fraction of a percent too high? Perhaps even train people?

Instead, everyone expects there to be a magical unicorn out there who has decades of experience as a senior at multiple FAANGs but lives in Warm Spit, Missouri and is willing to work for the average Walmart wage in Warm Spit (locality adjustment, surely you understand why we must do this). Shrink your pool to your local area. Even if you allow remote work, require a physical interview at your office. Stop screwing up the process by worrying about edge cases involving unicorns flying across the globe to meet you. Once you stop chasing unicorns, most of the fraud goes away because it's the unicorn chute that's letting the fraudsters into the process.

But seriously, stop getting rid of good employees and stop refusing to build up employees from within. Very few are going to get hired away if you treat them well. The few who do leave will either be treated poorly at their new employer and want to return or be treated well, which means that employer isn't gaining some advantage over you by treating their employees lesser.

Of course, if you're just trying to get a bonus for cutting labor expenses a few percentage points before you parachute off to somewhere else, then you and the company that tolerates this both deserve to suffer. No doubt you'll both be at your congress critter's door to demand access to the global market because you believe skill is based on how little an employee is willing to accept in compensation. In a labor pool of over 150 million, no doubt it's true that you can't find anyone who knows React or Spring Boot.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#85
post #5

They already do this, listen to the radio at off hours and there will be many job ads with instructions to apply via postal mail. Of course the reason isn't to deter LLMs it's to deter Americans so the employer can claim no Americans applied in their visa and green card filings.

Do FAANG, FAANG wannabes, or startups do this for software development roles? I've never heard of that.

Remember when they would put some minor text in the dev console with some sort of challenge? That was an interesting approach.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#86

After seeing the flood of resumes for application, I do think a small cost to apply wouldn't be a bad thing for either applicants or companies. I also realize that if someone is unemployed, getting them to pay money they don't have to find a new job is counterproductive. However, when we wanted to hire a new Ops person at work, the flood of obviously not qualified at all applicants we got was insane.

> the flood of obviously not qualified at all applicants we got was insane From speaking to folks looking for jobs in tech over the past few years, this is a natural result. 1. Companies write requirements on the job posting that are a little beyond reasonable for the role and salary. 2. Applicants learn over time, and start applying to jobs for which they only meet most of the qualifications. 3. Companies adjust and…

Activator / inhibitor

It’s a Turing pattern generator. Inevitable results.

To fix it, employers could require applicants to include a random variant as part of their application. What parameters? Postage, as is being discussed. Attach a handwritten personal reference letter.

I once designed, built and sent — on my own initiative — a building facade model for an architecture job, but it was with Michael Graves, so I’m sure other applicants sent in entire villages. They were old school enough to send it back with the rejection letter.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social affinity and reputation represent winning strategies that have served humans very well since the dawn of time. It shouldn't be surprising that they continue to be extremely effective even (or perhaps especially) in the age of AI.

That's why "nepotism" still thrives, in spite of (at least here in the West) several generations being taught that it's bad, evil and unfair.

That isn’t why nepotism exists.

Nepotism is because ‘what is the point of doing all this’ - aka passing things on to family.

It also enables a degree of aligned interests between what could otherwise be hard to align parties (trust, like you mention), but that not why someone gets a big name acting slot, or gets put on the board of a friends company.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#88

I'd really like a rejection physical letter back saying thankyou for application but no thanks signed by a human. I put some effort in to applying, they could at least exert some effort coming back, rather than simply ghosting. A reasonable barrier to bots collecting CV's.

In Germany it used to be that in some places, not only you were expected to have a proper application folder with various sections for the various kinds of material (CV, application letter, recomendantions, certificates, photo), they would post it back if refused.

This stopped being a thing about 15 years ago though.

I still have some of those applications in a box somewhere.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#89

I'd really like a rejection physical letter back saying thankyou for application but no thanks signed by a human. I put some effort in to applying, they could at least exert some effort coming back, rather than simply ghosting. A reasonable barrier to bots collecting CV's.

>I'd really like a rejection physical letter back saying thankyou for application but no thanks signed by a human

If you want personalized human rejection letters to come back to you, then the hiring process would have to be equally friction based: i.e. mailing in notarized copies of documents and interviewing in person, for it to scale and not overwhelm a company's resources.

>I put some effort in to applying

Yeah but so did hundreds of other people. This worked in the world of 20+ years ago, but it doesn't scale anymore in the era of online applications where every job posting gets hundreds of applications within a week.

It doesn't matter if you put in more work in your application than the other 200 candidates who are doing "spray and pray", it's too much noise for humans to swift through with without some automated screening that might just as well drop you through the net because it can't tell the amount of work you put in, you're just a number in a queue.

Re: Employers, please use postmarked letters for job applications (2025)

#90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why "nepotism" still thrives, in spite of (at least here in the West) several generations being taught that it's bad, evil and unfair.

That isn’t why nepotism exists. Nepotism is because ‘what is the point of doing all this’ - aka passing things on to family. It also enables a degree of aligned interests between what could otherwise be hard to align parties (trust, like you mention), but that not why someone gets a big name acting slot, or gets put on the board of a friends company.

It's part of it.

Nepotism entangles organizational interests with personal interests, in both good and bad ways. It means that someone may hire a friend or family member because they know they're a) competent enough for the job, and b) they actually, personally know them, which significantly reduces a risk of the hire turning out bad, relative to a stranger with equal or better credentials. But it also means that someone may hire a friend or family member because they're trading favors, which is bad for the organization[0].

I suppose in practice the latter might be more common - I'd guess it could be the whole idea has structural dynamics similar to "the market for lemons". I haven't spent much time thinking about it and researching the problem in depth, so I can't say.

--

[0] - And may or may not be bad for the local community. I suppose the larger problem for organizations is simply that they're designed to be focused, and need to maintain alignment of incentives across the org chart. Nepotism is a threat because it attaches new edges to the org chart - edges that lead to much more complex and fuzzy graphs of family and community relationships, breaking the narrow focus that makes organizations work.

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