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Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

donutlab.com

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Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#81

Post by cosmic_cheese »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #68

So solid state battery tech is very likely on-schedule for mass production over the next 4 years. There really isn't much time left for the haters to post stories attempting to factually dismantle and dismiss EVs before EVs pass the 51% adoption curve in 2030.

Even as things currently stand, some folks just have a bone to pick with EVs. Even if future models have an 800mi range, can charge to 100% in 5 minutes, and have useful lifetimes as long or longer than ICE counterparts, some will figure out some reason to get angry about them.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#82

Post by techsystems »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #68

So solid state battery tech is very likely on-schedule for mass production over the next 4 years. There really isn't much time left for the haters to post stories attempting to factually dismantle and dismiss EVs before EVs pass the 51% adoption curve in 2030.

Samsung originally scheduled production next year, but apparently it will be this year, ahead of schedule, and apparently winning the race.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#83

Post by thrwwXZTYE »

nine_k wrote: post #41

> Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density This is damn impressive. I suppose all the makers of military drones are lining up at the factory already. I mean, electric bikes are fine, but who has the most burning need to increase range and payload?..

Also you really don't need 1000s of cycles in military drones, so maybe some more "crazy" chemistries can be used.

If the drone can fly 10 times it's probably good enough.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#84

Post by calmbonsai »

jjcm wrote: post #48

One of the things I haven't seen discussed yet in the comments is this claim: Clay-like design freedom They're claiming this not only can fit custom geometries, but can be part of the structure itself. Would love to see what they're building this out of. I expect we'll see some people dissecting the verve cycle batteries soon enough.

The real issue with "clay-like design freedom" is the collective knock-on effects of thermal and conductive inefficiencies.

We've had "clay-like design freedom" since the early days of carbon-zinc batteries, but it turns out that it's far better (both for manufacturing, chemistry, and safety) to have a continuous volume of relative thermal and electrolytic quiescence that's, largely, isolated from physical strains.

That this is even being highlighted as a "feature" makes other claims even more dubious.

Suffice to say that any battery ("electrolytic cell") that's undergoing dynamic strains will have vastly different levels of conductivity (hence power output and contribution to thermal load) than one that is geometrically static.

Put another way, the performance gains from utilizing the motor as a "stressed member" (akin to F1 monocoque) in combustion vehicles was only possible circa 50+ years after the invention of the 4-stroke cycle. Talk to me in ~20 years.

FWIW, my degree is in electrical engineering and I worked on our college's solar car back when "solar car racing" was "a thing".

You do not want the stressed members of any structure being a salient contributor to its power-train. Not related, see mammalian, reptile, fish, and insect physiologies.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#85

Post by nine_k »

Alex2037 wrote: post #70
nine_k wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thickness of the cables is often due to their water cooling. Transferring 1 MW at 99.9% efficiency means 1kW escaping as heat.

that depends. transferring 1 MW at 1 MV produces very little heat

1 megavolt means huuuge spark gaps, I'd say no less than 20", given dry air. This also means very thick insulation, very bulky and expensive switches and breakers, etc.

Tesla 3MW charger uses 1250V DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawatt_Charging_System

Liquid-cooled charging cables are a thing. too; one of many: https://www.mouser.com/new/phoenix-contact/phoenix-contact-5...

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#86

Post by loeg »

Alex2037 wrote: post #70
nine_k wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thickness of the cables is often due to their water cooling. Transferring 1 MW at 99.9% efficiency means 1kW escaping as heat.

that depends. transferring 1 MW at 1 MV produces very little heat

Vehicle battery packs are 400-800V today; not 1MV.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#87

Post by akoboldfrying »

sfink wrote: post #40
bigwheels wrote: post #26

[flagged]

Based wholly on the claims in the article: [x] it is impractical to manufacture at scale. [?] it will be too expensive for users. (Cost unknown, but it's part of a $35K motorcycle, which somewhat limits the possible range unless there's VC chum involved.) [x] it suffers from too few recharge cycles. [x] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels. (Motorcycle, again.) [x] it lacks thermal stability at…

> [x] it suffers from too few recharge cycles.

100000 recharge cycles is "too few"?

Or are you using "x" to mean "this claim is rejected"? If so, on what grounds do you assert "[x] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it"?

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#88

Post by _carbyau_ »

stevage wrote: post #55
_carbyau_ wrote: post #25

Seems vaporware at the moment. But has anyone else had thoughts on how solid "solid state" batteries are? IE could the frame of my next motorbike be made from solid state batteries?

>With Verge Motorcycles bikes now using the company’s solid state battery technology in vehicles out on the road in use in Q1 Claiming that a technology is shipping imminently doesn't fit the normal definition of vapourware.

Has it shipped? Has it been reviewed? Has it been verified in any way? So it is vapourware, at the moment.

In the next moment some source of verification could appear, which is fine, then it wouldn't be vapourware. But as of commenting - as of the moment - this is the state of affairs.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#89

Post by recursive »

stevage wrote: post #55
_carbyau_ wrote: post #25

Seems vaporware at the moment. But has anyone else had thoughts on how solid "solid state" batteries are? IE could the frame of my next motorbike be made from solid state batteries?

>With Verge Motorcycles bikes now using the company’s solid state battery technology in vehicles out on the road in use in Q1 Claiming that a technology is shipping imminently doesn't fit the normal definition of vapourware.

All claims fit the definition of vaporware until and unless it's actually shipping to real customers.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#90

Post by nine_k »

thrwwXZTYE wrote: post #83
nine_k wrote: post #41

> Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density This is damn impressive. I suppose all the makers of military drones are lining up at the factory already. I mean, electric bikes are fine, but who has the most burning need to increase range and payload?..

Also you really don't need 1000s of cycles in military drones, so maybe some more "crazy" chemistries can be used. If the drone can fly 10 times it's probably good enough.

It depends; not all drones are kamikaze-type. Great many drones are used for delivery (food, ammo, medkits), for reconnaissance, as carriers of smaller drones, and as radio retransmitters. Bomber drones also fly a large number of sorties before getting shot down or breaking down from wear.

Ground teams usually have a bunch of batteries for quick replacement, because charging is slow. With these fast-charging batteries, they may need to lug fewer batteries, and larger generators.

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