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North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

bismarcktribune.com

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Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#81

Post by mothballed »

cogman10 wrote: post #77
mothballed wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was watching the Abrego Garcia case. It was done routinely by Garcia's lawyer. They would write an order for the judge to sign then ask them to sign it.

Do you have an example of this? Generally speaking, an attorney can make a request for a ruling by the judge and the other side can oppose it. However, beyond just citing relevant case law there wouldn't be anything that could be copied verbatim by a judge. There should be relevant court filings that show what you are saying happen. Do you have them?

Here's one:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.589...

Go to https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71191591/abrego-garcia-... and search "proposed order." You will find like 20+ of them, they are basically complete orders where they wrote the judge name and everything, just left the signature blank.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#82

Post by trhway »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #44
georgefrowny wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not make it a condition of the vote in the first place? Don't understand it? No vote for you. If your constituency wanted a say, they can let you know what they think about that.

do you want to incentivize introducing bills that are intentionally incomprehensible.

for anybody who can't pass the test on understanding - default "No" vote. That would incentivize the opposite - straight to understand bills.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#83

Post by pessimizer »

simonw wrote: post #29

I find the fact that nobody seems to know how those names got into the bill particularly frustrating. Lawmakers really need to learn to use version tracking properly. It's shouldn't be possible for a single line of text to make it into a bill without a digital trail leading back to whoever added it.

> Lawmakers really need to learn to use version tracking properly.

Why in the world would they want to do that? For you and the rest of the public to figure out who to blame for things?

It's not a matter of ignorance. Forcing them to use version control could be a good idea in theory. You can't force them to do anything though, because they make the rules.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#84

Post by atlasunshrugged »

potato3732842 wrote: post #52
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a former job I worked on a tech co's policy response to a major piece of California AI legislation a couple of years ago and was stunned to learn that nonprofits (at least, I'd be shocked if this didn't also include companies) basically sponsor bills and just find lawmakers to introduce and champion them.

nonprofits like the that just happens to be funded by that very industry. It's literally a laundering scheme. The industry can't wine and dine and send bills over to the politicians directly so they create some "clean" middle men to make it all look legit at first glance.

In the case I encountered it was an AI safety org that many in industry were against but indeed, I would guess your example to be the standard case

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#85

Post by cogman10 »

mothballed wrote: post #81
cogman10 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example of this? Generally speaking, an attorney can make a request for a ruling by the judge and the other side can oppose it. However, beyond just citing relevant case law there wouldn't be anything that could be copied verbatim by a judge. There should be relevant court filings that show what you are saying happen. Do you have them?

Here's one: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.589... Go to https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71191591/abrego-garcia-... and search "proposed order." You will find like 20+ of them, they are basically complete orders where they wrote the judge name and everything, just left the signature blank.

I see the proposed orders, but when I try to find the judge's order exactly copying the proposed order I'm not seeing it. I could be blind.

For example, here's the proposed order to strike [1], and here is the Judge's order granting that strike [2]

It's definitely ignorance on my part. I didn't realize the motions filed by a party ultimately took the form of unsigned orders.

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71191591/81/2/abrego-ga...

[2] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71191591/90/abrego-garc...

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#86

Post by buu700 »

simonw wrote: post #42
Analemma_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t want to pick on you specifically, because this is just one example of a very common pathology, but this is such an “HN-brained” comment. “They didn’t use version control” is ten million miles from the real problem here, and adopting version control would improve literally nothing about this situation.

I deliberately didn't say version control (which would imply git or similar, and we know they're not going to learn that). I said version tracking. They use word processors to write the things, they could at least learn to turn on "track changes". I genuinely do believe that a law that says "all laws must be able to show author tracking on a per-line basis" would improve democracy. Convince me otherwise!

I'll go further and say they should 100% use version control. I understand why they don't right now, but accommodating that seems like a relatively obvious lay-up for Microsoft. They could open source a docx-diffing/merging git extension, integrate it into GitHub, and integrate GitHub into Word.

I'd also add that Word could add first-class Markdown/.md support. Seems like a pretty natural direction to go in as AI-assisted drafting/editing becomes increasingly commonplace, and would further simplify the GitHub integration.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#87

Post by snarf21 »

simonw wrote: post #29

I find the fact that nobody seems to know how those names got into the bill particularly frustrating. Lawmakers really need to learn to use version tracking properly. It's shouldn't be possible for a single line of text to make it into a bill without a digital trail leading back to whoever added it.

I was under the impression that the majority of all bills (laws) are written directly by the lobbyists and think tanks. The staff just copy/pasta the requests all together.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#88

Post by nxobject »

simonw wrote: post #29

I find the fact that nobody seems to know how those names got into the bill particularly frustrating. Lawmakers really need to learn to use version tracking properly. It's shouldn't be possible for a single line of text to make it into a bill without a digital trail leading back to whoever added it.

This being highly embarrassing, I assume enough people can make a good guess at who it was, and won’t admit it on the record. It would beg the “why”, after all.

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#89

Post by decimalenough »

pests wrote: post #55
decimalenough wrote: post #14

On mobile: does this article really consist of a single paragraph of text and a single illegible small screenshot, buried in an avalanche of ads, including things like "More >" links that open more ads?

There is 20 separate paragraphs/major sentences.

Still not working for me, even on desktop: https://imgur.com/a/IXrOFmh

Fortunately archive.is uncovered the actual content: https://archive.is/TCjMy

Re: North Dakota law lists fake critical minerals based on coal lawyers' names

#90

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

mmooss wrote: post #66
majke wrote: post #7

So... does it mean that nobody reads the law? Is it good or bad? What is the takeaway?

That often happens. Some bills are released to lawmakers without enough time to read them.

Wouldn't the obvious answer to be vote against? If you do not know the terms of the deal, maintaining the status quo seems superior.
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