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We Need to Die

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Re: We Need to Die

#81

Post by bigstrat2003 »

tern wrote: post #45

For me, the biggest tell was how frequently older people report feeling completely at peace and ready to die. As my own life progressed, the feeling of novelty became harder to find, and then less important. Grief became easier, death became lighter. As I deepened my investigation into the nature of my own experience, I started to realize that "I" do not exist in the way that I originally assumed, and I started to wo…

> As my own life progressed, the feeling of novelty became harder to find, and then less important. Grief became easier, death became lighter.

This has been my experience as well. When I was 20, I couldn't understand why someone would be ready to die outside of extreme illness or depression. Now, at 40, I am beginning to understand. I'm not ready to die yet, but I can envision myself being there someday. This world is tiring and I can understand how a person would reach the point where they welcome an end to their story.

Re: We Need to Die

#82

Post by GMoromisato »

mrg3_2013 wrote: post #77
wat10000 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in favor of improving longevity, but sometimes there is something to be said for other people dying. Imagine a world where Stalin was still alive and would remain so approximately forever. I don't think this is a reason to avoid research on aging, but immortal dictators could certainly be a downside.

Had a chuckle at the mention of Stalin. Made me think. I would also think, the evils would be the one who would badly want to live forever, if an option was presented.

Queue the hot-mic moment between Putin and Xi where they discussed living longer with modern medical miracles.

Re: We Need to Die

#83

Post by roxolotl »

zebomon wrote: post #52

The author's argument seems to be a practical one and two-part: 1) without death, there's nothing to motivate us to live life well and 2) unless we live life well, there's no point in living. I just disagree with both postulates, and that's fine. The author can go on thinking that life needs to be something specific in order for it to be desirable. I myself like being productive. I also like eating fast food every on…

I think the point is a bit more nuanced and has to do with the authors conception of the self. He argues that even if you got immortality and lived a great life at some point You would stop being You so you might as well have died anyways. I think it’s a bit silly. But if you believe that enough alteration of the self results in its death, a sort of Self of Theseus, then I think it’s a consistent opinion.

> His argument is precise: the desires that give you reason to keep living (he calls them categorical desires) would either eventually exhaust themselves, leaving you in a state of "boredom, indifference and coldness", or they'd evolve so completely that you'd become a different person anyway. Either way, the You that wanted immortality doesn't get it. You just die from a lack of Self rather than through physical mortality.

Re: We Need to Die

#84

Post by polivier »

GMoromisato wrote: post #56

This is like worrying about the sun going supernova after you've just discovered fire. Yes, eventually Earth will be reduced to a blackened cinder. And yes, if humans managed to live forever, there would be unforeseen (maybe bad) consequences. If I get to live to 200, I still won't worry about it. If I get to live to 1,000, maybe I might start to think about it. Fortunately, by then, I will have had 1,000 years of ex…

> And that's the real problem for the nay-sayers. They know that they don't have to live forever if they don't want to. They just don't want other people to live forever. They want to live in a world where other people die.

If one can make a good argument that people living forever would have too many downsides in the long run, one might reasonably not want others to live forever. This is similar to environmental policies. Even though one may not live through most downsides of current bad environmental policies, one may still want good environmental policies for the sake of their children.

Re: We Need to Die

#85

Post by s5300 »

tern wrote: post #45

For me, the biggest tell was how frequently older people report feeling completely at peace and ready to die. As my own life progressed, the feeling of novelty became harder to find, and then less important. Grief became easier, death became lighter. As I deepened my investigation into the nature of my own experience, I started to realize that "I" do not exist in the way that I originally assumed, and I started to wo…

[dead]

Re: We Need to Die

#86

Post by s5300 »

CodingJeebus wrote: post #70
WA9ACE wrote: post #40

"The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish." -- The Great Dictator by Charlie Chaplin

...unless the dictator has kids, which happens all the time throughout history

[dead]

Re: We Need to Die

#87

Post by tmsbrg »

orangecat wrote: post #59
tmsbrg wrote: post #14

Not the argument I expected. I'm also against people living forever, but more because it's a way for society to go forward and get rid of old ways of thinking. There's a saying that science advances one death at a time. And can you imagine a world where current leaders are still in power 1000 years later? Or where the leaders of 1000 years ago were still in charge? Whenever I hear people talk about living forever I t…

I'm also against people living forever, but more because it's a way for society to go forward and get rid of old ways of thinking. Well, I'd like to get rid of the old way of thinking that death is good :p And can you imagine a world where current leaders are still in power 1000 years later? Leaders generally don't rule for life in functioning countries, and the mortality of individual Kims has not helped the people…

> Leaders generally don't rule for life in functioning countries, and the mortality of individual Kims has not helped the people of North Korea.

I guess you'd say most people in the world don't live in functioning countries then? China, Russia, much of the middle east and Africa are not democratic and sometimes the death of a dictator is the only way to move them forward. USA and many democracies in the west are also backsliding so maybe soon few people will live in a "functioning country".

Counterpoint on Kim: The death of Stalin or Mao Zedong released a death grip on their respective countries. You can't ignore that getting rid of natural death would make individual centralization of power a worse problem.

>How are these people currently oppressing you, and how would the existence of longevity treatments make that worse?

Just one example: Trump using sanctions to block the ICC from doing it's job (and thus letting people in Gaza die and blocking steps of justice against Israel). The fact is that the centralization of power in modern times into individual hands is already unprecedented. Old people are already ruling the world and they'd do everything to rule it forever.

Re: We Need to Die

#89

Post by mrg3_2013 »

GMoromisato wrote: post #82
mrg3_2013 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had a chuckle at the mention of Stalin. Made me think. I would also think, the evils would be the one who would badly want to live forever, if an option was presented.

Queue the hot-mic moment between Putin and Xi where they discussed living longer with modern medical miracles.

That makes total sense now, indeed!

Re: We Need to Die

#90

Post by teeray »

Waterluvian wrote: post #11

There have been many, many stories over the millenia that try to empart the wisdom that mortality is necessary. Some present it as being a gift. I don't think any one source made it click for me, but I think some combination of watching The Good Place , Sandman , and a lot of Black Mirror got me really stretching my imagination of what it would feel like to be truly immortal. I had a moment that felt like my horizons…

> watching The Good Place… I had a moment that felt like my horizons had been expanded very slightly when I felt this severe dread for maybe half a second. A feeling of being inescapably trapped.

Ah, he saw the time-knife

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