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Datacenters in space aren't going to work

taranis.ie

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Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#81

Post by notahacker »

cuuupid wrote: post #20

I don't agree with the logic that "something is hard/can't be done right now" is equivalent to "this is a terrible idea and won't work." There are dozens of companies solving each problem outlined here; if we never attempt the 'hard' thing we will never progress. The author could have easily taken a tone of 'these are all the things that are hard that we will need to solve first' but actively chose to take the 'catas…

That's not the argument though. The argument is "it can be done, the methods to do it are known, but the claims about space being an optimal location to locate our AI datacenters are false and the tradeoffs and unit economics of doing it makes no sense compared with building a data centre on earth somewhere with power and water, preferably not too hot.

But for a more nuanced and optimistic take, this one is good and highlights all the same issues and more https://www.peraspera.us/realities-of-space-based-compute/

(TLDR: the actual use cases for datacentres in space rely on the exact opposite assumption from visions of space clouds for LLMs: most of space is far away and has data transmission latency and throughput issues so you want to do a certain amount of processing for your space data collection and infrastructure and autonomous systems on the edge)

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#82

Post by tim333 »

yardie wrote: post #4

I asked Google for more information about AI datacenter in space. This was the first sentence, 'AI data centers are being developed in space to handle the massive energy demands of AI, using solar power and the vacuum of space for cooling.' > After laughing at "the vacuum of space for cooling" I closed the page because there was nothing serious there. Basic high school physics student would be laughing at that senten…

I tried Google and it pointed me to a ycombinator video about Starcloud https://youtu.be/hKw6cRKcqzY They launched a satellite with one H100 in on Nov 2nd.

>I mean, when you tell people that within 10 years it could be the case that most new data centers are being built in space, that sounds wacky to a lot of people, but not to YC. (8:00)

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#83

Post by ReptileMan »

RugnirViking wrote: post #16
fhars wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are even commercially available prototypes of that vacuum cooling technology, if you want to perform your own experiments with that concept: https://www.amazon.com/Thermos-Stainless-Ounce-Drink-Bottle/...

this kind of sarcasm will go over their head. People truly don't understand vacuums

I absolutely don't understand how vacuum works. So I absolutely cannot model how a Dewar flask which has 15 billion light year thickness between the inner and outer wall - a wall that is very close to absolute zero will behave.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#84

Post by moffkalast »

reilly3000 wrote: post #68
awei wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the underwater idea did not think of that

The problem is a lot of people like the underwater idea and I’m worried we’re heading towards something like literally boiling the ocean as they say.

No worries, the oceans are cooked already.

https://www.ipcc.ch/srocc/chapter/technical-summary

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#85

Post by ReptileMan »

ffsm8 wrote: post #77
jhanschoo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can radiate the excess energy away on the non-sun facing part on Earth almost just as well..., though corrosion is an issue.

"just as well"? I man you totally can radiate excess heat energy on earth, but your comment implies that the parents idea of radiating off excess "energy", specifically HEAT energy in space is possible, which it isn't. You can radiate excess energy for sure, but you'd first have to convert it away from heat energy into light or radio waves or similar. I don't think we even have that tech at this point in time, and ne…

>specifically HEAT energy in space is possible, which it isn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#86

Post by marcellus23 »

vintermann wrote: post #39

Always remember the magic words: dual use technology. The people pushing these aren't saying to you that they want to build data centers in space because conventional data centers are at huge risk of getting bombed by foreign nations or eventually getting smashed by angry mobs. But you can bet they're saying that to the people with the dual-use technology money bag. Or even better, let them draw that conclusion thems…

What makes an orbital facility at less risk of getting bombed?

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#87

Post by ffsm8 »

ReptileMan wrote: post #85
ffsm8 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just as well"? I man you totally can radiate excess heat energy on earth, but your comment implies that the parents idea of radiating off excess "energy", specifically HEAT energy in space is possible, which it isn't. You can radiate excess energy for sure, but you'd first have to convert it away from heat energy into light or radio waves or similar. I don't think we even have that tech at this point in time, and ne…

>specifically HEAT energy in space is possible, which it isn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation

I see, yes. I was thinking more along the lines of radiating heat energy at a scale that's useable for cooling, not at the more extreme levels of over 500°C/1k fahrenheit

That's technically correct I guess, at some temperature threshold it becomes possible to bleed some fractions of energy while the material is exceedingly hot.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#89

Post by dzhiurgis »

foobarian wrote: post #69
kevdev wrote: post #6

As someone with a similar background to the writer of this post (I did avionics work for NASA before moving into more “traditional” software engineering), this post does a great job at summing up my thoughts on why space-based data centers won’t work. The SEU issues were my first though followed by the thermal concerns, and both are addressed here fantastically. On the SEU issue I’ll add in that even in LEO you can s…

The only advantage I can come up with is the background temperature being much colder than Earth surface. If you ignored the capex cost to get this launched and running in orbit, could the cooling cost be smaller? Maybe that's the gimmick being used to sell the idea. "Yes it costs more upfront but then the 40% cooling bill goes away... breakeven in X years"

Breakeven in X years probably makes sense for storage (slow depreciation), not GPUs (depreciates in like 4 years)

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#90

Post by greyadept »

smokel wrote: post #33
yardie wrote: post #4

I asked Google for more information about AI datacenter in space. This was the first sentence, 'AI data centers are being developed in space to handle the massive energy demands of AI, using solar power and the vacuum of space for cooling.' > After laughing at "the vacuum of space for cooling" I closed the page because there was nothing serious there. Basic high school physics student would be laughing at that senten…

You could help by using the thumbs down button below the answer.

I would be tempted to give the thumbs up to terrible answers like that.
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