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The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

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Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#81

Post by Razengan »

wredcoll wrote: post #73
Razengan wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the ”Country that tried nothing says it’s impossible” meme. > Issue special debit cards for UBI > Issue special machines/payment processors for those cards to registered merchants, landlords, and utility and healthcare providers.

We have tried that. It's cheaper and more effective to just give people a wad of cash.

But people who are against UBI by default seem to want some kind of "policing" before they'll consider it.

Various countries have various things that operate on similar principles, such as transit cards etc.

Hell, even VIDEO GAMES have done this: Special "premium" currencies that you can use only for certain things, buy with realmoney or earn through various activities, and cannot trade.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#82

Post by globalnode »

appreciatorBus wrote: post #56
globalnode wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>emotional discomfort with various inequities & inequalities you say it like thats a bad thing

Not at all. Feeling emotional discomfort with inequities and inequalities is a common human trait, probably nearly universal. But there’s no reason to suspect that that discomfort is a good guide toward solutions that help more than harm. That sort of facile engagement with the problem is what gives us disastrous ideologies like communism.

what dont you like about communism? do you even know? not a huge fan of extremism personally im just curious on your take.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#83

Post by crazygringo »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #76
crazygringo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking how you opt out of taxes. You don't. And everything you earn isn't rightfully yours. It's supported by an infrastructure of national defense, courts, police, building regulations, and so forth. You get many years of public school for free. Etc. etc. You didn't do this solo. So the cost of all the benefits you get as a citizen is to contribute your rightful share, that share being decided democratically…

The rightful share is radically lower than it would be set democratically. Taxation above a certain point is a form of oppressive injustice.

Well, obviously that's your opinion as to what constitutes a just, rightful share. But other citizens have different ideas. And in a democracy, a middle ground is found. And that's considered just by democratic principles.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#84

Post by akoboldfrying »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #68
akoboldfrying wrote: post #43

Who will clean the toilets under UBI? I'm interested in answers that mostly preserve the status quo, and in answers that propose more radical shifts.

People paid the real value of having clean toilets.

That is what they're paid now, says capitalism.

If you're unhappy with that being called the "real value", what should be called the "real value"? That is, how would you define it?

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#85

Post by lenkite »

TheCleric wrote: post #78
omikun wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But have you seen a population of people quit jobs over pettier things? The studies aren't based on just one or two individuals.

A group is a collection of individuals. Anecdotes != data and whatnot, but by my observations people don’t always make purely rational economic decisions, so if you were going to a see people quitting over UBI you’d already see it. Of course this hypothesis is as based in reality as yours, so the only thing we can do is try and find out.

With your caveat of "Anectodes != data and whatnot, but by my observations", people don't make rational food decisions when given free money. They tend to spend on snacks and sugar, not on veggies. Unless discipline is enforced, free money is a disaster.

Are you also going to have "free health care" with UBI ? That would be cataclysmic as you would need to also give free diabetic and obesity treatments until end of lifespan.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#86

Post by seba_dos1 »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #84
seba_dos1 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People paid the real value of having clean toilets.

That is what they're paid now, says capitalism. If you're unhappy with that being called the "real value", what should be called the "real value"? That is, how would you define it?

For starters, I wouldn't consider anything valued under a threat of ending up on streets to be "the real value". If you can be scared by the prospect of losing your job ruining your life, it's not valuation - it's coercion. You can't end up with market valuation if you are forced to take an unqualified job just to live, this will massively undervalue such jobs. You don't find out what's the value of having clean toilets - you only find out what's the lowest wage people willing to do this job will manage to live on.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#87

Post by akoboldfrying »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #86
akoboldfrying wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what they're paid now, says capitalism. If you're unhappy with that being called the "real value", what should be called the "real value"? That is, how would you define it?

For starters, I wouldn't consider anything valued under a threat of ending up on streets to be "the real value". If you can be scared by the prospect of losing your job ruining your life, it's not valuation - it's coercion. You can't end up with market valuation if you are forced to take an unqualified job just to live, this will massively undervalue such jobs. You don't find out what's the value of having clean toil…

I basically agree that it's coercion, but I think it's hard to draw a line where coercion ends and "free choice" begins.

Maybe we could get society to agree that everyone should get some basic set of inalienable rights that includes rights to housing, enough food to eat, etc. Enough so that losing a job didn't threaten your life or health. This is basically what social welfare systems already do. But I think that the quality of life afforded by taking social welfare instead of working must be kept lower than the quality of life afforded by taking any form of work, otherwise there's no incentive to do unpleasant jobs. If social welfare enables a completely comfortable life, I think one of two things would happen: either the price needed to get a toilet cleaned would shoot up to a level that would basically inhibit most ordinary businesses from forming, or it would become the norm for people to clean their own toilets at work. The latter wouldn't be so bad, I think.

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