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New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

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Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#81

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

piva00 wrote: post #41
yetihehe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, so we can all be schooled in "Why Every Man Should Be Strong"[0], "How to Set a Table"[1], "9 Ways to Start a Fire Without Matches"[2] or "Win the War on Debt: 80 Ways to Be Frugal and Save Money"[3]. You used probably the weakest reason to discredit the idea of men improving themselves. That's not a "good" manly behavior. [0] https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/fitness/why-ev... [1] https://www.artofma…

I think there might be some of that happening on YouTube, James from Speeed[0] (who used to be in Donut Media before) has been mixing the usual car-related content with wholesome masculinity stuff, and I feel that should be the future of making masculinity be seen less as "being tough" to being a resilient, dependable, empathetic person. I don't think his channel is the only one, it's the only one I'm exposed to so k…

What's are the differences supposed to be,between male and female? Genuine question

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#82

Post by yetihehe »

sunrunner wrote: post #78
yetihehe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I picked those examples deliberately, but I don't see why any of the qualitatively good ones are 'manly'. What was your goal? What was your argument? I said that we need men to be more manly (strong and able to do things that are historically considered to be done by men) and you said that those can be also done by women? I would consider woman able to change a tire, play cards and start fire without matches t…

> What was your goal? I think the thread has been a bit derailed in terms of my intention, which was more to point out that I don't feel like the qualities that are mentioned in the original article (mentorship, guidance figures, schoolwork, relationships, future planning) are really represented well by a clickbait website with articles mostly split between 'Top N things you really need to do for X' and things that w…

> I'd even say the 'Get Style', 'Get Strong', 'Get Social' and 'Get Skilled' categories always appear to wander towards (while never approaching) Andrew Tate territory, in terms of their goals.

I agree. Going into "Andrew Tate" territory represents that toxic masculinity for me, it's the far end of spectrum of manliness. But we men don't need to go all the way into absurdity when trying to be more manly. But not all of us are in the same place. Some are too close to unmanly end, some are too close to toxic end. artofmanliness contains articles for both of those people, to move them closer to the center of good manliness (expressed by ideals 'Get Style', 'Get Strong', 'Get Social', 'Get Skilled' and I would add 'Be dependable', 'Be honest').

And being womanly is not an end of spectrum of manliness. Being unmanly (0 of qualities we mentioned, a weak man without style, social or any other skills) is the lowest end of spectrum of manliness.

> This I agree with, but I don't feel that website is a good example of a role model for the qualities that the original article mentioned were missing.

You would have to look more. You have only seen a small sample from each section.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#84

Post by GeoAtreides »

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #77
GeoAtreides wrote: post #68

Why is this flagged?! dang, mods, this is getting ridiculous. A couple of people are deciding what the community is discussing. Something needs to change.

I don't have an answer to that, I just want to highlight how blurred the line is between what the community tolerates and what it doesn't. There is a thread with a similar discussion, but somehow the one that comes from fiction didn't trigger the same reaction as this article, which deals with science: Arthur Conan Doyle explored men’s mental health through Sherlock Holmes | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46068…

>the community tolerates and what it doesn't.

But it's not the community, is it? It's literally a couple of people that can flag and bury a post. One or two, not more than that needed.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#85

Post by GeoAtreides »

yetihehe wrote: post #74
GeoAtreides wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

downvoting is one thing. flagging is another. the HN community wants to discuss this issue (37 points / 65 comments). One guy (234000 karma) doesn't. This is not right and it's making HN a worse place.

> This is not right and it's making HN a worse place. I think so too, but It's not a strong opinion from me. Some things are offtopic. The problem is that there are no other good discussion places to discuss this. Maybe it's because such topics attract a lot of people with strong opinions who don't engage in good-faith discussion (I'm not talking about you or that one guy). > One guy (234000 karma) doesn't. I think o…

One or two people flagging is enough.

If I'm mistaken, the mods can clarify how many flags does it take to bury a post, and if there are people with special flagging rights or if karma plays a role in flagging.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#86

Post by veeti »

GeoAtreides wrote: post #68

Why is this flagged?! dang, mods, this is getting ridiculous. A couple of people are deciding what the community is discussing. Something needs to change.

Because it takes like three people to flag a link or comment into the void.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#87

Post by loteck »

jacquesm wrote: post #14

I'm flagging this based on previous experience with similar threads.

I appreciate this comment creating somewhere for people to discuss flagging. In my ideal HN you wouldn't be down voted but there would be a rigorous comment thread underneath it.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#88

Post by vacuity »

pjc50 wrote: post #52
Vinnl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one problem we have (always had, but worse now that there are so many more opinions to be exposed to) is that we expect "society's" opinions to be consistent, despite being made up of millions of different people. Of course there are going to be people telling others to be vulnerable and open, and of course there are also going to be people telling others not to complain because that's dumping their problems…

Also, by "society" often people mean "twitter", which is hardly an organic cross section of public opinion.

I agree in one sense, but in another, the extremes seen on Twitter are not where the madness ends. The Overton window shifts slowly.

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#89

Post by vacuity »

kakacik wrote: post #58
pjc50 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, a single act of abuse can wreck someone's mental health for their whole life as well. It's a difficult problem that requires lots of human effort.

Some risk of more severe harm vs guaranteed harm on all male population. I'd take the chances

Abusers are not evenly distributed over all men, so the target group is not "men" but "men who we knew were probably sketchy anyways, and some we unfortunately didn't know about".

Re: New research highlights a shortage of male mentors for boys and young men

#90

Post by vacuity »

oulipo2 wrote: post #65
philipallstar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't understand much if you think that to fight the lack of mentors for men, you have to put down women The reverse of this has been what's been dominating for a decade. Anything pro-men (or even just neutral) can be accused of being anti-woman, which creates a chilling effect as female-dominated HR departments can make life very difficult for men looking to provide for their families.

Absolutely untrue. Feminism has NEVER been against men. Only people who half-ass reading about feminism, and rely too much on stupid far-right videos on TikTok believe that

To be fair, no one person or even group defines "feminism", or "masculinity", or anything of the sort. It's a big cafeteria, and there's a lot of food to be flung around.
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