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Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

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Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#81

Post by zb3 »

martypitt wrote: post #50
_pdp_ wrote: post #21

> We’re building an open-source chat that works As long as you have Pricing on your website your product is not open source in the true spirit of open sourceness. It is open code for sure but it is a business and so incentive is to run it like a business which will conflate with how the project is used by the community. Btw, there is nothing wrong with that but let's be honest here if you get this funded (perhaps it…

> As long as you have Pricing on your website your product is not open source in the true spirit of open sourceness. It's an MIT license. That IS open source. If they have a commercial strategy - that's a GoodThing. It means they have a viable strategy for staying in business, and keeping the project maintained. MIT == OpenSource. Pricing == Sustainable. That's a horse worth backing IMO.

> It's an MIT license. That IS open source.

The source is available and you can do much with it, but the incentive is that this alone should not be enough.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#82

Post by jstummbillig »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #78

Something like this has a very limited shelf life as a product. What users need from chat is very user specific, trying to be the one chat to rule them all is not gonna end well, and as models get more capable each chat experience is going to need to be more customized. Something like this could have a nice future as an open source chat framework for building custom UIs if it's well made and modular, but that isn't g…

I disagree. This has both APIs as well as connectors. One of the reasons I use Google Workspace as SaaS is because of the extensive API, that gives me the flexibility I need with a great starting point (and continued development, that I continue to benefit from).

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#83

Post by fhd2 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #77
fhd2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really does, by any definition I've ever heard. I suppose the authoritative one would be [1]. A common "trick" for commercial open source software is to use a copyleft license, which restricts redistribution as part of commercial products, and to offer a paid license to get around that. [1]: https://opensource.org/osd

Nothing in that "authoritative" definition says you cannot charge for binaries, for example. It's talking mainly about source code itself. Something you just publish the source for but charge for anything else, would be fair game and still "open source" by that definition.

Agreed, "free" is too broad.

I was responding to parent's question though: "Can you call it open source if you need a subscription license to run / edit the code?"

I'd say no. If you have the code in front of you, it shouldn't require a license to run. Even if the whole point of the open source software is to interact with a proprietary piece of software or service, you could still run it for free, it probably just wouldn't have much utility.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#84

Post by Weves »

jbuendia829 wrote: post #79

Congrats on the launch! Curious, it's a crowded space with other enterprise search companies like Glean and Elastic, and other companies coming in like Notion and Slack. Why should a prospect choose Onyx over the others?

Great question! Depends on the specific alternative, but the broad points are:

- "pure chat" experience. From our community (and personal use), we've observed that most queries don't actually involve enterprise search. They much more likely to just require the LLMs internal knowledge (or web search / code execution). Compared to all the companies you've mentioned, we've spent a lot more time refining this more common flow.

- Larger connector suite. As soon as one key source isn't connected, the trustworthiness of the system is dramatically decreased. You second guess "is the info needed to answer this question in there?" for every question. We have a community who builds out connectors for themselves, and then contribute it back for everyone to use. This allows us to cover the long-tail better than companies like Notion and Slack.

- Customizability. An open-source application is the perfect middle ground between a SaaS offering and building blocks. A SaaS option doesn't allow for any customization (we have many customers who have contributed back ux enhancements, small features like guardrails, or enhanced configurations that their users want). Building blocks demand too much domain expertise (search, frontend/UX, ...) for it to be realistic for companies to build something great.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#85

Post by maxloh »

dannylmathews wrote: post #31

The license on this project is pretty confusing. The license at the root of the project links to backend/cc/LICENSE.md which says you need a subscription license to use the code. Can you call it open source if you need a subscription license to run / edit the code?

That's exactly the same approach employed by Gitlab and is actively being deployed and used by GNOME and F-Droid.

Could you elaborate why this approach is confusing?

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#86

Post by fhd2 »

fragmede wrote: post #53
fhd2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really does, by any definition I've ever heard. I suppose the authoritative one would be [1]. A common "trick" for commercial open source software is to use a copyleft license, which restricts redistribution as part of commercial products, and to offer a paid license to get around that. [1]: https://opensource.org/osd

GNU disagrees. > Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU Project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible—just enough to cover the cost. This is a misunderstanding. > Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If a license does not permit users to make copies and sell them, i…

Fascinating, from skimming that, it does indeed appear that it would be within the GNU philosophy to distribute source code solely in exchange for payment. Doesn't cover a case where the source code is _already_ distributed though, then it's free to run.

And even if the source code was only distributed to paying customers, that'd likely be a temporary situation. A relevant quote:

"With free software, users don't have to pay the distribution fee in order to use the software. They can copy the program from a friend who has a copy, or with the help of a friend who has network access."

I do read the GPLv3 such that if someone _does_ buy the code in any fashion, you must provide the source code to them for free. Relevant excerpt from section 6:

"[...] give anyone who possesses the object code either (1) a copy of the Corresponding Source for all the software in the product that is covered by this License, on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange, for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source, or (2) access to copy the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge."

But yeah, no obligation to provide the source code for free to non-customers, fair point. Just no ability to stop customers from sharing it with non-customers. Does make sense.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#87

Post by thinkloop »

Weves wrote: post #64
bilekas wrote: post #63

Interesting product and best of luck with it. > but I’m going to start by connecting GPT-4o, Claude Sonnet 4, and Qwen to provide my team with a secure way to use them I did get a little giggle out of that because I've never heard anyone say that hooking up 3rd party llms to anything was any way secure.

Thanks for the kind words! The key point there is that many would do it through Azure / Bedrock + locally host the open-source models. Also, all chats / indexed data lives on-prem, and there are better guarantees around retention when using the APIs directly.

Is running your llm through azure insecure? I mean more so than running anything on cloud? My understanding was that azure gpt instances were completely independent with the same security protocols as databases, vms, etc.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#88

Post by Weves »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #78

Something like this has a very limited shelf life as a product. What users need from chat is very user specific, trying to be the one chat to rule them all is not gonna end well, and as models get more capable each chat experience is going to need to be more customized. Something like this could have a nice future as an open source chat framework for building custom UIs if it's well made and modular, but that isn't g…

Hmm, will have to disagree here. I think "one chat to rule them all" is the way it will end.

It does requires having UI components for many different types of interactions (e.g. many ways to collect user input mid-session + display different tools responses like graphs and interactives). With this, people should be able to easily build complex tools/flows on top of that UI, and get a nice, single interface (no siloed tools/swapping) for free. And having this UI be open-source make this easier.

Re: Launch HN: Onyx (YC W24) – Open-source chat UI

#90

Post by bks »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #78

Something like this has a very limited shelf life as a product. What users need from chat is very user specific, trying to be the one chat to rule them all is not gonna end well, and as models get more capable each chat experience is going to need to be more customized. Something like this could have a nice future as an open source chat framework for building custom UIs if it's well made and modular, but that isn't g…

I've been using Onyx (and Danswer before it) for over a year, and I'd push back on this. We have Freshdesk, Bookstack, Google Drive, YouTrack, and Slack all connected. It seamlessly answers questions like:

"What's Max's GitHub username?" "I need wire transfer instructions for an incoming wire"

We also index competitors' helpdesks and KB articles to track new features they're rolling out. Our tech support team uses it daily because Freshdesk's AI is terrible and their internal KB search is lackluster. Onyx actually finds things. The value isn't in being "one chat to rule them all" — it's in unified search across disparate systems with citations. That's not getting commoditized anytime soon. Keep up the good work, team.

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