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NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

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Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#81
post #19

> Removed SD card. The manufacturer of the camera had requested certain components of the device be redacted. Portions of this image have been redacted. And so it is, but anyone who has ever seen a Sandisk SD card knows what they're looking at. I can even tell it's not the fastest V90 speed. The things companies try ineffectually to keep out of public view are weird.

Especially when anyone can buy the product off the shelf, remove the casing to see what they are trying to redact in these images.

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I always shake my head when the Reddit armchair security experts say "The data wasn't even encrypted!? Amateur hour!" in response to some PII leak. Sure, sure buddy, I'll encrypt all of my PII data so nobody can access it... including the web application server. Okay, fine, I'll decrypt it on the fly with a key in some API server... now the web server had unencrypted access to it, which sounds bad, but th…

Re: encrypting data that would be served via web server: why would anyone bother to encrypt data meant to be shared externally worldwide? It makes no sense to begin with…

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Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#83
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of stupid decisions that went in the design and construction of the Titan is astonishing. One of my favorites was that, after putting on the carbon fiber around the tube, they would sand imperfections to make the surface perfectly smooth, severing layers in the process! It shouldn't require an engineering degree from MIT to recognize this as ill-advised.

I don't like this interpretation of things. Its worthwhile to experiment and try things. They were basically mentally ill as a group and rejected genuine concern. Everyone wants to shit on the build but it was the human relations that killed it.

Also, honestly, the build. That “genuine concern” they ignored was that the build was critically flawed. I don’t think anyone here would have these takes if a small group of curious engineers tried their hand at a composite submersible, it was when they kept doing it after all the qualified engineers had said, “This is crazy, I’m out.”

The build was kind of dumb, and I’m hardly an engineer. It’s common sense. Carbon fiber composites are interesting because they’re strong relative to their weight. Remove either of those features and they become pointless.

Who cares if a submarine is heavy?

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#84
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Strong in tension, not compression” is a meme, and obviously wrong. It is certainly stronger in tension, but it is also remarkably strong in compression. That’s why it’s used - yes, in compression - in modern passenger aircraft. You don’t even need to know that, though; the simple fact is that the Titan had a double-digit number of deep dives. If it was weak in compression it would not have survived diving to 3.7 ki…

Aircraft fuselages are typically loaded in tension. It’s a key part of the design. Carbon fiber compressive strength is only ~ 30-50% of it’s tensile strength because of the way the fibers and the epoxy interact. When compressed, the carbon fibers don’t do as much. [ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02638... ] But don’t believe me, actually read a useful paper on the subject. In fact, it’s a maj…

James Cameron certainly knows a lot about submarines, but if he says something factually incorrect then it’s factually incorrect, period. Carbon fiber does not have “no strength in compression” and it is used in compression in countless applications, for example airplane wings. Again, the fact that the sub - built at absurdly low cost for its size, built by a bunch of cowboys that didn’t know what they were doing - DID survive to 3.7 km deep on several occasions is proof sufficient. If CF had no compressive strength than the whole thing would have failed at a tiny fraction of that depth. If CF had no compressive strength then what kept the sub together during the successful dives? Hopes and dreams?

I’m not here to defend the decision to use carbon fiber, and as I’ve said I completely agree that there are many issues with using it in this application. Delamination, water ingress, bonding the titanium to the carbon fiber, difficulty of manufacture including varying layer thickness and voids, sensitivity to impact, the list goes on. But _those_ are the issues, not the compressive strength.

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#85
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aircraft fuselages are typically loaded in tension. It’s a key part of the design. Carbon fiber compressive strength is only ~ 30-50% of it’s tensile strength because of the way the fibers and the epoxy interact. When compressed, the carbon fibers don’t do as much. [ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02638... ] But don’t believe me, actually read a useful paper on the subject. In fact, it’s a maj…

James Cameron certainly knows a lot about submarines, but if he says something factually incorrect then it’s factually incorrect, period. Carbon fiber does not have “no strength in compression” and it is used in compression in countless applications, for example airplane wings. Again, the fact that the sub - built at absurdly low cost for its size, built by a bunch of cowboys that didn’t know what they were doing - D…

Moved the goalposts again eh? While completely ignoring the cites and discussion? What, were you a major shareholder? Family member?

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#86
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me forever to find the actual quote - ChatGPT and Gemini kept trying to gaslight me that it’s not a real quote or that Willie said it to Bart until I gave the exact quote (at which point normal search engines were fine): > A certain agitator, for privacy's sake, let's call her Lisa S. No, that's too obvious, let's say L. Simpson. Lisa the Vegetarian

If you google “Lisa S L Simpson” it’s the first thing that comes up… why make it harder with AI?

I've recently randomly seen some younger guy running a basic calculation like 7*12 in chatgpt on his phone. It just had me in disbelief

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#87

There's a fascinating and redacted interview with an "anonymous" subject about the disaster. To say the least it's an unsuccessful attempt to hide the identity of the individual: "Q. So how did you get yourself started into submersible operations? A. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with my film Titanic. When I set down the path to make that film, the first thing that I did was arrange to be introduced to the head of t…

Among the interviews, one with the former engineering director was the most eye-opening for me. https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=17236880&Fi... It appears that all the engineers -- system designer, material engineer and structural analyst -- thought that OceanGate CEO was going to kill himself: If you ever find , he’s not going to have a whole lot of nice to say. He was very frustrated with the compan…

Wow! Man, an insider with these kinds of concerns isn't exactly exonerating or excusing themselves with such a testimony. Whistle-blowing to any relevant authority as hard as possible seems like the bare minimum? And if there's no governing agency to pass the responsibility over to, I think you gotta quietly approach the first customer (or victim) with these concerns if not a newspaper

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They thought the camera’s file system was unencrypted, when it was encrypted. Unfortunately this situation is likely to get more common in the future as the "security" crowd keep pushing for encryption-by-default with no regard to whether the user wants or is even aware of it. Encryption is always a tradeoff; it trades the possibility of unauthorised access with the possibility of even the owner losing access permane…

This has already happened to Windows users when BitLocker disk encryption is enabled by default and they do something that causes the encryption key to be lost. You can have the key saved in your Microsoft account.

You can have the key saved in your Microsoft account.

I find it very hard to believe that those who want their disk encrypted also want Microsoft to have the key.

Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#89

There's a fascinating and redacted interview with an "anonymous" subject about the disaster. To say the least it's an unsuccessful attempt to hide the identity of the individual: "Q. So how did you get yourself started into submersible operations? A. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with my film Titanic. When I set down the path to make that film, the first thing that I did was arrange to be introduced to the head of t…

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Re: NTSB report: Decryption of images from the Titan submersible camera [pdf] (2024)

#90
post #66

I'm confused. Why are decryption keys in NVRAM? That seems to negate the purpose of at-rest encryption if you can retrieve keys from the device even after shutdown.

What would you say is the threat model that leads one to auto-encrypt sdcards? For a machine that needs to boot unattended, what would you do with disk decryption keys?

> What would you say is the threat model that leads one to auto-encrypt sdcards?

Jumping off of daemonologist's point, the most convincing model I could think of is one where you are consistently removing the SD Card, likely because you are swapping multiple SD cards back and forth. But this still seems bad! In that case your multiple SD cards all share the same decryption key (or I guess less egregiously all at least share the same physical vulnerability of that device's nonvolatile memory).

> For a machine that needs to boot unattended, what would you do with disk decryption keys?

This depends entirely on what you mean by unattended. Here's some candidates:

1. The machine has a network connection and you would like to boot it over the network. In that case you have a small unencrypted bit that handles the boot sequence and then pass the decryption key over the wire, store in volatile memory, and wipe on shutdown or logout.

2. The machine is regularly serviced/booted by an in-person operator. You give the decryption key or passphrase to the operator to decrypt and boot the machine.

3. The machine is meant to autonomously reboot itself due to e.g. error conditions. In extreme cases when the machine detects that there is a large probability of physical compromise, it shuts down. In this case for the former I would imagine some power supply, e.g. a backup battery, that keeps the volatile memory up when rebooting and in case of large probability of physical compromise there is a forced shutdown and/or wipe of the volatile memory.

4. An operator needs to periodically boot up the machine, but the operator should not be able to access any previous data the machine has recorded (data from the moment operator arrives forward is assumed leaked to the operator because e.g. the operator can just position their own sensor in front of the machine and collect data). In that case asymmetric encryption should be used and the encryption keys should be stored on the machine, but the decryption keys should not, effectively turning the machine into a write-only device from the operator's perspective.

The only case I could imagine where you want the machine to boot unattended and you'd keep the decryption keys in nonvolatile memory on the device is if you want an operator to be able to boot the device without knowledge of the decryption key and also to be able to view historical data previously recorded by the device. But in that case there is no functional difference between that and a device that is unencrypted! In both cases you boot up the device without a password and voila all the data is in front of you ready to be read! And indeed that's basically what happened here (modulo the difficulties associated with the device being damaged). And in that case encryption seems like pure overhead for no real security benefit.

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