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How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

theguardian.com

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Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#81

Post by pton_xd »

delichon wrote: post #51

cult (noun): A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader -- American Heritage Dictionary Without the "generally considered to be extremist or false" it would be quite hard to even identify a cult. It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group. It's an element of a…

> It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group.

I generally agree. The divide between religion and cult is just a distinction between what's deemed acceptable behavior by society. Obsessing over a person who died thousands of years ago? Totally "normal." Obsessing over a single living person? Totally a cult.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#82

Post by giraffe_lady »

fluoridation wrote: post #71
giraffe_lady wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The piece left me thinking that the reasons people become involved with and attached to cults might not be different at some fundamental level from a lot of other psychological problems they get themselves in — just a matter of degree or pervasiveness. It's kind of hard to articulate but the thing with cult and cult-like movements, and also somewhat cons & scams, is the "vulnerability" they exploit is the raw mater…

>A person who is immune to cult recruitment is a person who never feels isolation, desire, loneliness, grief, hope, fear of loss or lack of control, a person who never wants a hug or someone to talk to, who feels nothing at a smile from a stranger or the giggle of a baby. Is it? Surely you can feel all those things and also be cynical enough to think no group can really provide a satisfying alternative.

A satisfying alternative to what? Some of these things can only be provided or alleviated by relationship and community.

A cult recruiter (or MLM or whatever) is offering what you need, it's just not a sincere offer. Your ability to assess that, to judge which relationships can safely meet these needs, is exactly what is compromised by having those experiences.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#83

Post by dylan604 »

ffsm8 wrote: post #74
ljm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew one person--shared a flat with them--who was heavily into that sort of spiritual-esque alternative health, the sort you'd connect to the so-called Woo-to-Q pipeline these days, who would subject themselves to that kind of thing. It was all about the 'cleanse': 1. Fast on water for a week 2. Drink a cup of olive oil, straight 3. Multiple enemas several times a week 4. Maintain a raw vegan diet in between Throw…

That's roughly one per 20 minutes? I think that's doable, it likely wasnt a traditional enema, they most likely just had to put some fluid in which consequently got absorbed by their column. Like 5 ml or so. Definitely mind boggling people are willing to do such, but it's within my expectations for people that fall to such obvious scams/cults.

>That's roughly one per 20 minutes? >I think that's doable,

I'm thinking of this for someone working in an office situation. Depending on how long it takes to perform the enema, this is about the same schedule as smokers. So maybe it's not so far off??

Then again, I'm guessing you divided that by 24 hours rather than a work day. Once per 20 minutes would me no sleep which would have worse health effects

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#84

Post by dogleash »

rboyd wrote: post #67

wait a minute here.. HN: - asks you to self-assign a new name upon joining - has a leader - has a hierarchy (rating system) - esteemed texts which promise by adopting a strange method (Lisp) that you can achieve higher levels of wealth and self actualization should I be worried?

>should I be worried?

If you read Hackers and Painters without realizing you're getting conned, yes. Very much so.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#86

Post by GoToRO »

skeezyjefferson wrote: post #85

i stopped after reading these two were taken in by promises of levitation. i dont care how attractive the cult is, youre an idiot to believe it

fun fact: if you get some chronic illness, you have good chances to become an idiot. Every time your body stops working in some major way, your thinking is also affected (you become a de facto idiot).

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#87

Post by exasperaited »

delichon wrote: post #51

cult (noun): A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader -- American Heritage Dictionary Without the "generally considered to be extremist or false" it would be quite hard to even identify a cult. It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group. It's an element of a…

This is not a useful definition of a cult, though it is a short one.

The primary characteristic of a cult is that adherents find it difficult to leave, not because of the specific beliefs of the religion (e.g. Islam) but because of the mechanism of control.

"Unconventional manner" doesn't really cut it.

The key definition of a contemporary cult from the perspective of someone who has seen people join one is that the cult turns people inward to the cult and encourages them to cut off not just friends who question their belief but ultimately all non-cult friends and family.

In fact you could argue that the primary quality of a mainstream religion is that it points itself outwards towards non-believers and does not condition receiving its care on belief itself.

For example, the Unification Church is on a slow trajectory towards mainstream religion. The University Bible Fellowship, absolutely a cult and quite a scary one, is not on that trajectory.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#88

Post by exasperaited »

nkrisc wrote: post #54
delichon wrote: post #51

cult (noun): A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader -- American Heritage Dictionary Without the "generally considered to be extremist or false" it would be quite hard to even identify a cult. It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group. It's an element of a…

> Without the "generally considered to be extremist or false" it would be quite hard to even identify a cult. Well, yes, if you remove the thing that distinguishes a cult from those other things, then it is hard to distinguish them.

To my mind that definition lacks any accuracy because it doesn't speak about control. It's difficult to leave cults, and not because of belief (apostasy). It's difficult to leave cults because they destroy your outward connections, as a principle of operation.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#89

Post by exasperaited »

pton_xd wrote: post #81
delichon wrote: post #51

cult (noun): A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader -- American Heritage Dictionary Without the "generally considered to be extremist or false" it would be quite hard to even identify a cult. It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group. It's an element of a…

> It's mostly used as way to slur a disfavored group. I generally agree. The divide between religion and cult is just a distinction between what's deemed acceptable behavior by society. Obsessing over a person who died thousands of years ago? Totally "normal." Obsessing over a single living person? Totally a cult.

> The divide between religion and cult is just a distinction between what's deemed acceptable behavior by society.

This is misconception. It's not about the extremism of the belief. It's about the mechanism of control.

Take the "cults" of the moment: Qanon/MAGA, for example, operate like a personality cult in many identifiable ways, but are not actually cults, because you can leave without much difficulty if you set your mind to it.

On the fringes US politics encourages ostracising family members who do not agree, but these movements do not have a mechanism of control (financial control combined with a commitment to cutting off family members).

There may be cult sects within MAGA/QAnon that get close, perhaps (just as there are at the fringes of all strange and mainstream religious beliefs)

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#90

Post by fluoridation »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #82
fluoridation wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A person who is immune to cult recruitment is a person who never feels isolation, desire, loneliness, grief, hope, fear of loss or lack of control, a person who never wants a hug or someone to talk to, who feels nothing at a smile from a stranger or the giggle of a baby. Is it? Surely you can feel all those things and also be cynical enough to think no group can really provide a satisfying alternative.

A satisfying alternative to what? Some of these things can only be provided or alleviated by relationship and community. A cult recruiter (or MLM or whatever) is offering what you need, it's just not a sincere offer. Your ability to assess that, to judge which relationships can safely meet these needs, is exactly what is compromised by having those experiences.

>A satisfying alternative to what?

A satisfying alternative to legitimate connections, formed organically.

>A cult recruiter (or MLM or whatever) is offering what you need

No, it's offering a shallow facsimile of it, with the intent of exploiting you.

>Your ability to assess that, to judge which relationships can safely meet these needs, is exactly what is compromised by having those experiences.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. You can be able to enjoy all those things you said, and also have the ability to judge when someone just wants to manipulate you, or exploit you, or when the offer is too good to be true.

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