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FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
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Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good carpenters can build stuff without nail guns, doesn’t mean it makes sense to use hammers.
Carpenters use hammers all the time…
Uh yeah… just like investigators use tools other than polygraphs.
The point is that just because something can be done without a specific tool does not mean you should never use the tool.
I guess I should’ve added “doesn’t mean it makes sense to use hammers exclusively" for the HN pedants.
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
> private companies should poly people more often in hiring, it could prove more useful than other arbitrary kind of culture fit interviews. Useful in what sense? That you can't figure out anyway what tested person is capable of because tested person can believe that they have skills on godlike senior level, but they are junior at best?
Yes I’m also curious. From what I know polygraphs and similar interrogation are for assessing whether there is anything that could be used to blackmail or compromise you. Whether one agrees with the method, the goal seems logical for intelligence orgs. For companies, industrial espionage would be the obvious parallel. I don’t know how polygraphs would relate to culture fit though… watching to see if candidates perspi…
Well, my perspective is having to do with Ukrainian mil tech, but I believe the same is true in e.g. cybersecurity, and it helps that the newcomers are often familiar with the process. Poly is not for everyone. Now, when you say "industrial espionage" it sounds dandy and fine, but for all intents and purposes there is no such thing. There is exploitation, yes, and it may easily cross from industrial, to defence, to political depending on trade.
I never said I subscribe to the unpopular opinion, but it's a point of contention regardless!
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#84Yes polygraphs are bollocks, but, rules are rules. The issue is, if exceptions are made, what's stopping other breaking the rules? I don't care if he's a dem, rep or maga, rules are rules.
So many things we thought were rules or laws or regulations were never actually anything but customs, traditions, and gentlemens' agreements.
Which works great as long as the people in command are sane and ethical. When you have an FBI director who spells his name with a dollar sign, well...
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#85Yes polygraphs are bollocks, but, rules are rules. The issue is, if exceptions are made, what's stopping other breaking the rules? I don't care if he's a dem, rep or maga, rules are rules.
When I was in college they did an audit to see if I could graduate and it was flagged that I had been allowed to skip the Introduction to Computer Science class because I got a 5 on the AP Comp Sci test. The problem was that I took the test while it was administered in C++ and it had later switched to Java.
The school decided they were not going to recognize the test results and instead would only credit me with an elective class for it, I would still have ot pass the introductory class. This is in spite of pass all the later comptuer science classwork.
I escalated it to the dean, who told me that while he recognized this made no sense, "rules are rules and if we didn't follow them they wouldn't be rules".
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#86I think many on this thread are missing the point. the fact that it had to be waived alone speaks volumes. Sure they're about as accurate as a coin flip as the top commenter said, but they are theatrics and what you do before, during, and after usually gives interrogators lots of clues about you that they wouldn't otherwise have observed. If you're trying "tricks" to get past it for example, that's one data point. It…
It doesn't speak volumes. It just says that the people being hired had enough status that they don't have to go through what amounts to an initiation ritual.
Polygraphs appear to be another sad outcrop from the same pseudoscience formation as phrenology or witch-ducking; basically theatre to legitimise people exercising power in a way they were already going to do. The fact that it gets used speaks more volumes about the culture in intelligence services than the people who may or may not undergo the test.
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not accurate. Polygraphs are not detecting lies, they're used to assess your sensitivities; there are really talented interrogators in counterintelligence, whose full-time job is to fuck with you in subtle ways. To poly a person at will is very much a power move, and some guys fucking love it. But that's a different story all together. Most of the time it's a formality like everything else. In reality, people…
> whose full-time job is to fuck with you in subtle ways. And this is a process that you expect to produce an output with any predictive value what so ever? > it could prove more useful than other arbitrary kind of culture fit interviews. You could also just end up selecting for psychopaths and sociopaths for whom this test does not function, regardless of how much you "fuck with them."
I did paint a cynical picture, so please do take it with a grain of salt.
Poly is just one tool, and it's never a solution to anything. What you say about potential abuses, undesirable selection, etc. I agree 100% and hate the office-politique jockeys as much as the next man. In most corporate environments, fucking with people has no place and use, but it's far from only application, in fact it's pretty much the worst application possible. Doesn't change the fact that it happens, even though it shouldn't. I also believe that it's important for many orgs to start taking security seriously; in the world where there's so much exploitation, and where applicable, it helps a lot if your org can have some kind of counterintel function. It doesn't have to include poly, but whatever helps you better understand the people you work with is surely a boon.
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#88Now that we have real time brain scanning techniques I bet there is something way more accurate than a polygraph out there now.
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
The main point of the screening is to have a highly structured question and answer session that is recorded for posterity, and which can/will be referenced at the next screening 'n' number of years later. One could even argue that the polygraph benefits the person being screened, as it provides some additional motivation for them to take it seriously.
The FBI and CIA have polygraphs. The FBI and CIA still have moles and they often times operate out of the highest levels. They're like door locks. They keep honest people honest. They provide zero security.
Door locks are a deterrent that increase the difficulty and cost of a crime. If your neighbor's house is locked and yours isn't, then you're going to be more of a target. In that sense they do provide security, but of course any lock might still be defeated.
Similarly, I can see how structured psychological interrogation, assisted by a polygraph, is a useful deterrent. The presence of moles doesn't negate all of its value. Just like having your house broken into once doesn't mean you'll stop using door locks.
Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff
#90Yes polygraphs are bollocks, but, rules are rules. The issue is, if exceptions are made, what's stopping other breaking the rules? I don't care if he's a dem, rep or maga, rules are rules.
When I was in college they did an audit to see if I could graduate and it was flagged that I had been allowed to skip the Introduction to Computer Science class because I got a 5 on the AP Comp Sci test. The problem was that I took the test while it was administered in C++ and it had later switched to Java. The school decided they were not going to recognize the test results and instead would only credit me with an e…
Not the same