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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#81

Post by xp84 »

saubeidl wrote: post #9
siavosh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m reading a book by a British author called Against the Machine which you may enjoy. It distills this pervasive unease so many have felt of this growth at all cost system that has been rapidly eating the world. The environmental, humanistic, moral, and spiritual costs of this “machine” is sometimes hard to see when it’s all we’ve known.

On a very related note, I can recommend Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. To quote Wiki: > It explores Fisher's concept of "capitalist realism", which he describes as "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." > The book investigates what Fisher describes as the widespread effects o…

But haven’t many countries not only imagined but tried very different alternatives to capitalism? What have we learned from those countries?

It seems to always come back to the fact that people who get power always attempt to use that power to get more resources and power, violating all their supposed values and stealing resources from the public.

Personally, I am far from enamored with the apparent equilibrium state of capitalism, if that’s what we have in the US. However, when you compare how I feel about American capitalism to how I feel about North Korean totalitarianism, Venezuelan corrupt socialism, Soviet murderous communism, Cuban destructive communism, etc etc. suddenly I appear to be a booster for capitalism.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#82

Post by rsynnott »

fijiaarone wrote: post #36
mothballed wrote: post #10

"Output per head" is total population? If so the slight downward trajectory likely reflects the aging population of europe.

The average age of the population of Europe has gotten significantly lower over the last decade.

... What on earth lead you to believe that?

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#83

Post by seanmcdirmid »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #35
groundzeros2015 wrote: post #19

Japan had a similar turn in the 80s, but unlike Europe they seem to have more of an alternative view of society and future. Europe seems to effectively follow American culture and practices with a dampener. Being America with healthcare and college funds has not been much of a vision for the future.

Japan just took out 300% of debt to GDP. There wasn't anything special. It was just debt.

That had more to do with its population needing to save for retirement and Japan needing to invest those retirement funds in something. Almost all of that debt is domestic.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#84

Post by trashb »

A lot of (not all) European regulation is at it's core about trade. Things this author feels are "obstructions to trade" are to enable trade of the things we value. For example Europe might regulate what fish species you can sell if you call a fish "Anchovy". Additionally some regulation applies minimal standards, for example regulation of the angle of what's visible in the rear view mirror of a car. On top of that some regulation is to guarantee certain standard of living between member countries. The countries themselves are separate governing states therefore they still have some agency on the standards they set on top of the European regulation. This all is required for equal trade between countries while not merging altogether.

On top of that not all regulation is about economics, sometimes we favor safety, standard of living or social safety nets above short term profit. Those factors will in the long run lead to more prosperity for the citizens.

No system is ideal and there are definitely problems within Europe however I feel like this article is written from a very pro USA perspective. At points it almost reads like a thread to the European government or pro-USA propaganda. I think the authors proposes a solution that will lead to a "race to the bottom" within European trade similar to how the current economic system is dysfunctional in the USA.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#85

Post by drcongo »

trashb wrote: post #84

A lot of (not all) European regulation is at it's core about trade. Things this author feels are "obstructions to trade" are to enable trade of the things we value. For example Europe might regulate what fish species you can sell if you call a fish "Anchovy". Additionally some regulation applies minimal standards, for example regulation of the angle of what's visible in the rear view mirror of a car. On top of that s…

Absolutely agree. When you buy olive oil in Europe you get oil made from olives.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#86

Post by mothballed »

drcongo wrote: post #85
trashb wrote: post #84

A lot of (not all) European regulation is at it's core about trade. Things this author feels are "obstructions to trade" are to enable trade of the things we value. For example Europe might regulate what fish species you can sell if you call a fish "Anchovy". Additionally some regulation applies minimal standards, for example regulation of the angle of what's visible in the rear view mirror of a car. On top of that s…

Absolutely agree. When you buy olive oil in Europe you get oil made from olives.

Domestically produced USA olive oil is actually olive oil.

If you buy olive oil in Europe you get olive oil.

If you buy olive oil from Europe you may get olive oil, you might get something else. This is because European olive oil trade has large component of European (largely Italian) gangsters involved in the olive oil export trade.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#87

Post by trashb »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

"reken je niet rijk"

> Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensive.

This is true, however there is so much that is already paid for with the Dutch salaries that you have to arrange individually in the USA. Mind you a lot is collectively organized which would be impossible to arrange individually to the same level.

I think there are a lot of people in the USA with "entry level jobs" choosing to afford a nice home but perhaps have some other things not as well arranged skewing the observers image, for example working a lot of hours or not having a better health insurance coverage.

In the end I feel like the welfare of the median person in each country is very important and I feel like the NL scores on that way higher when compared to the USA. For example healthcare, education, infrastructure, food safety etc.

Above the average(note average is not median) you are probably better of in the USA but below the average you are probably better of in NL.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#88

Post by stego-tech »

xp84 wrote: post #71
stego-tech wrote: post #26

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here? ). Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to…

> Europe…issues… can still be traced back to unresolved wealth pumps and neoliberal policies weakening the state and labor force in favor of business and billionaire interests Is it your position that Europe just hasn’t done socialism hard enough? Can you point to an example of a country who has successfully done what you’d like to see?

> Is it your position that Europe just hasn’t done socialism hard enough?

No, obviously, but I can see how folks who cannot grasp the complexity and nuance of geopolitics might reach for classic boogeyman arguments like this one.

> Can you point to an example of a country who has successfully done what you’d like to see?

If I could, then it’s a certainty others would have emulated them by now as well. Don’t you dare try and say that “because a prior example does not exist, therefore this idea is bad”, because the entire technology field is built on people trying the same old ideas in different ways and finding out something that works better in the process. Be better in your retort rather than try and throw cheap barbs for karma.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#89

Post by stego-tech »

FredPret wrote: post #58
stego-tech wrote: post #26

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here? ). Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to…

> “Europeans… so much happier than… Americans” Citation needed, and not to a Facebook Quiz-tier “how happy are you on a scale of ten” questionnaire. My experience is obviously anecdotal, but it is quite varied, and the exact opposite.

I am not your search engine. If you have data that refutes my position, share it. Otherwise, personal experience is not indicative of a larger consensus or observed attitudes and outcomes, nor are “grass is greener” lamentations an acceptable supporting argument.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#90

Post by stego-tech »

riffraff wrote: post #39
stego-tech wrote: post #26

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here? ). Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to…

the 28th regime is a proposal from the former head[0] of the largest Italian left wing party. It may be insane, but it's not something dreamed up by billionaires. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Letta

Thank you for the additional context! I had no idea it stemmed from Mr. Letta or his political positions that contributed to the pitch, but I must respectfully disagree with any notion that grants business interests free reign to do as they please outside the interference of policy and society, especially when existing Capital holders have a grotesquely unequal amount of resources at their disposal to already capture entire regimes for their own ends.

It’s a recipe for disaster, and I cannot support it. That’s just my personal position.

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