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Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

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Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#81

Post by rkomorn »

cyberax wrote: post #69
jvanderbot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want you to very carefully consider the better options. Perhaps they type instructions? And hope someone reads them? Perhaps they drag and drop vectors? Then what, a radial menu with emergency modal screens? Or maybe they click some buttons, forcing the occasional look away from the screen? Maybe AI could do it all? For this, voice is perfect. We have been following instructions by voice since humans could grunt. W…

> I want you to very carefully consider the better options. How about digital HD audio at least? In parallel with legacy analog audio. The next step is visual alerts for pilots if the ATC tries to call _them_. You know, like our phones can do for nearly 150 years. Edit: I'm studying for a private pilot license, and the difficulties in just understanding what the ATC and the other pilots are talking about is really a…

> Edit: I'm studying for a private pilot license, and the difficulties in just understanding what the ATC and the other pilots are talking about is really a major stumbling block for me.

FWIW (and this may not be applicable to you, or you may already be doing it) I found that listening to ATC via LiveATC for my home airport during my car commutes really helped me with radio skills.

If you don't commute, I'd still suggest just listening when you're not in a cockpit and don't have to worry about flying.

Listening to specific airports I was familiar with really helped.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#82

Post by dh2022 »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #77
fujigawa wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

People of high integrity don’t work without paying wages. People of high integrity don’t work for people of low integrity.

Maybe you want to rephrase your last sentence because right now it reads as an insult to all federal workers.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#83

Post by jkrejcha »

numpad0 wrote: post #56
tekla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather them read text messages on their iPads?

Is your problem a trust issue with always-updating AWS-hosted randomly-banned silently-breaking framework-rotating modern web apps, or something fundamental with GUI based systems? I mean, I wouldn’t trust a literal iPad , but I’m not sure if I distrust an entirely figurative iPad.

The problem is fundamentally the fact that it is a visual based system.

It is generally faster to communicate orally and process communication aurally than by text message when the message is short enough and requires immediate attention. This is also why urgent alarms (such as those provided by the Gound Proximity Warning System (GPWS) or Traffic Collision Avoidance System[1] (TCAS) have such a component). Some stall prevention systems are even partially tactile based (making a pretty unmistakable shaking feeling (it is loud as well)).

It is incredibly slow to type and then process that visual information. In addition, it's also just much more reliable.

For time critical situations, it's not a viable option.

[1]: Yes, TCAS has a visual component and many alarms do too, but the RAs are auditory and give specific, to the point, instructions on what to do ("climb", "descend").

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#84

Post by anonymousiam »

dweekly wrote: post #64
jvanderbot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want you to very carefully consider the better options. Perhaps they type instructions? And hope someone reads them? Perhaps they drag and drop vectors? Then what, a radial menu with emergency modal screens? Or maybe they click some buttons, forcing the occasional look away from the screen? Maybe AI could do it all? For this, voice is perfect. We have been following instructions by voice since humans could grunt. W…

As a commercial pilot, your response is a little glib and kind of ignores the meaningful advances that have been made with D-ATIS, ADS-B In, CPDLC, DUATS, XM weather, etc. Voice is absolutely not perfect, analog FM audio often comes through garbled, pilots have to wait their turn on a busy single-user channel for timely information, etc. This doesn't even begin to touch on the complexities that will come from full in…

Just a nit, but aircraft/airport communications use AM not FM. This is deliberate, because FM's "capture effect" would mask other transmissions that inevitably occur when two parties randomly press PTT at the same time. With AM, you'll hear a tone, which is the difference frequency between the two transmitters, so you'll know that somebody missed something, and it will probably be repeated. If it were FM only, it would be less obvious that some communications were missed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#86

Post by Tadpole9181 »

ezfe wrote: post #58
hdgvhicv wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they turning up for work?

Because they will be back-paid when the government reopens and if they stop showing up then they will be fired. Now, you could ask: won't they be able to get a job back later, who knows.

Actually, the administration has cast doubt on if they will actually provide backpay. It's now anybody's guess.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#87

Post by goblin89 »

rmccue wrote: post #68
goblin89 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If “in response” means replying back to tower on tower’s frequency, then no. After the lady on tower frequency told them about traffic (twice), they came in on departures frequency (it was a fresh contact, they started with “good afternoon, American 4 with you”) and said they have traffic in sight. Edited after I rewatched the video: 1. Tower handed them off to departures. 2. They said bye and stopped listening to to…

Note that VASAviation's visualisations are not always 100% synched with ATC radio recordings, and the radio usually has gaps removed. It's a useful overview to see the tracks, but take the video's timing with a grain of salt.

I mentioned that in my original comment.

Unless it is out of sync by tens of seconds, however, it is clear that they were handed off to departures and were neither responding nor even listening to tower.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#88

Post by goblin89 »

Deradon wrote: post #45

Question for any aviation expert: Would TCAS be triggered at such a low altitude on departure?

Yes, TCAS II warns all the way down to 100m AGL (around 320ft above the ground), and they were already between 1000ft and 1500ft (~400m).

It may or may not have advised what to do (to climb/descent/etc.) because that is turned off below 1000ft, and they were approximately at that altitude at the time.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#89

Post by hdgvhicv »

dh2022 wrote: post #82
hdgvhicv wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of high integrity don’t work without paying wages. People of high integrity don’t work for people of low integrity.

Maybe you want to rephrase your last sentence because right now it reads as an insult to all federal workers.

If you’re meekly doing your job rather than actually using your power to end this then yes.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#90

Post by hdgvhicv »

Covenant0028 wrote: post #80
hdgvhicv wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of high integrity don’t work without paying wages. People of high integrity don’t work for people of low integrity.

I guess the people in this instance realise they're an essential service for the economy and that without them, a lot of people could actually die. So they probably see their role as being more than simply working for the people of low integrity.

In which case it’s their duty to end it. But I don’t see a million people marching in Washington, I don’t see food deliveries failing to reach the White House. I don’t see airports simply close down.
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